Medieval Eurocom History: sinkholes, wolves, and gout

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus


Anglo-Saxon mixed with Norman...that´s what an Englishmen is. The English (not Irish, Scottish, Welsh) aren´t Celtic at all.

For the love of God, how often do I have to repeat the same thing over and over? A gene marker study was done in the 1990s comparing the prevalence of a gene more commonly found among western Germanic peoples than among non-germanic western europeans, i.e., the French and Spanish. The gene was present in abut 18% of the population of the Netherlands, Denmark and coastal Germany, but in only 6% of the French and Spanish. In England the gene was found in only 8% of the population, indicating that the population of England is only about 20% closer genetically to Germans than are the Celtic French and Spanish. The prevalence of the gene was identical in Scotland and Ireland. Remember that all threee nations were at one time or another occupied by the Vikings.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Azazel
It depends, crunch. much of the population of England is still indegenous British population. But since noone's able or wants to distinguish people that way, it's redundant.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2076470.stm

It suggests that between 50% and 100% of the indigenous population of what was to become England was wiped out, with Offa's **** acting as a "genetic barrier" protecting those on the Welsh side.

And the upheaval can be traced to this day through genetic differences between the English and the Welsh.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2076470.stm

It suggests that between 50% and 100% of the indigenous population of what was to become England was wiped out, with Offa's **** acting as a "genetic barrier" protecting those on the Welsh side.

And the upheaval can be traced to this day through genetic differences between the English and the Welsh.

I don't have a link to the study I'm referring to because it was published in a medical journal, JAMA. I don't think that the research was funded by the BBC. In my experience when research is funded by an organization with an agenda they get the results they paid for. Also I read the actual scientific article, not the interpretation of it by a non-scientist. In the study I read the marker was not a Y-linked marker, but was present on an autosome.

A gene marker study in Columbia found that the population was closely linked to the Spanish by Y chromosome markers, but the mitochondrial DNA was almost exclusively native american. The implication of the study was that the Spanish probably exterminated the male population, then bred with the native women. However since the study I quoted uses autosomes, while the one you quoted used Y-chromosomes that can't be said here.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
Angles are from south of Denmark... Saxons are from the area of Sachsen in germany

Actually, the Saxon tribe that invaded Britain lived on the North Sea, near the Angles and Jutes. All three tribes. Those who remained behind eventually moved South East as the Germans pushed back the Slavic hordes.

[Ned]

SD, I think the key point is that the BBC study only looked at the Y-chromosome marker - which according to the article is passed from father to son. The broader study suggests plenty of Celtic DNA, but only from Celtic women.

This makes sense to me because I can hardly believe that German warriors sailing to Britain would have taken with them enough women for all the warriors to have wives. So they probably spared the women of Britain even as they killed their men and boys that came into their power.

The bulk of the British population probably fled before the advancing Germans. When St. Patrick landed in Northwest Gaul in the summer of 407, he found nary man nor beast over the whole area that he travelled. This was the summer just after the German invasioin of Gaul that began when the Germans crossed the frozen Rhine on Jan. 1. I suspect something similar happened in Britain.

[Dauphin]

Its not a BBC study. It was performed by University College, London.

[Ted Striker]

Azazel,

Thanks for the welcome back. Who is that beautiful woman in your avatar? I can't make out who the other person is.

Doc,

While I'd agree that there are other groups who are superior in certain categories (such as Africans normally physically superior) I feel that Germans are in the Top 3 in most categories -- having the best balance of all the best attributes. In athletics they seem to excel in everything they do. People like Detlef Schrempf, Boris Becker, Steffi Graf (nice legs ), come to mind as your stereotypical, very strong, very coordinated, highly intelligent, and highly determined German.

Though I will agree that Africans would be destroying everybody in sports if they had access to proper training, nutrition, and facilities.

Laz,

This isn't some Hollywood rendition type thing. This is a university level program that is done in an academic sense and every single contributor to this program is a PHD specializing in Western History. The narrator himself is a European educated at Cambridge and now teaches at UCLA. What they basically do is take medieval artwork and then narrate a lecture over the top of it.

http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/history/weber/

But like I said we don't get that much education of this time period, and secondly, they have to squeeze alot of info about alot of different people into one show, so of course there is alot of generalizing going on. Most of it focuses on mainland Europe, mainly France, then Italy, and then the central areas.

This isn't meant as a joke or a putdown of Euros as I'm simply finding alot of this information very interesting. In any case alot of this is up to interpretation, and I don't think most people have studied this time period and have your expertise.

Still I believe those medieval towers were the skyscrapers of their time. Skyscrapers are usually put up by people or companies enjoying wealth and excess, and often are put up in a binge of "mine is bigger than yours." Often they are more symbolic than anything. The situation in Italy parallels the situation in New York in the 1920's.

Then there is the building frenzy of the churches, which occured when the church dominated life and was raking in serious money. They built their own huge, high rise towers after being influenced by the Muslims.

[Ted Striker]

Here's the list of advisors:

http://www.learner.org/catalog/producers/wtcreators.html

[Dis]

good thread. I've always been fascinated with the dark ages too from a history stand point. I can't explain why. Maybe I'm just morbid . I'll have to catch up on this thread.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Ted- if you're really interested in pre-medieval history, try these resources out. They're all English- I have no expertise in European history outside the UK, but I've been researching 8th-10th century English history for 5 years.

The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle- http://www.britannia.com/history/docs/asintro2.html

It's an original source, and essential reading.

Then balance that with the following essential textbooks-

Stenton, Sir Frank W.: "Anglo-Saxon England" (Oxford University Press)

John, Eric- "Reassessing Anglo-Saxon England" (Manchester University Press).

Stenton's work is the massively-detailed and rigorously researched classic text. John's covers the bits that Stenton got wrong, or covered incompletely.

[Ted Striker]

Thanks for the sources Laz, I will check those out.

Speaking of which, Excalibur was on last night, unfortunatley it was in Spanish but it was still fun to watch.

[molly bloom]

There is one word of Celtic origin in English- breeches/britches from the Celtic brecan. All the rest are loan words from Scots Gaelic or Erse, although cwm from Welsh is used in geography occasionally, if I recall.

The Dark Ages is now seen pretty much as a misnomer- people used it in the past to compare the period adversely with the supposedly golden age of the Roman Empire. Naturally, they chose to ignore the continuation of learning/philosophy in Ireland, and the artistic/scientific golden age of the Cordoban Caliphate. They also chose to denigrate the arts/literature of the Vikings and the Saxons.

The hilarious picture of the relentlessly grim Dark Ages in Europe is very funny indeed. One wonders how with such seeming short lifespans, through infant mortality, famine, disease, nomad invasions and, ah, roaming wolf packs, Europe ever achieved anything.

I believe the plague afecting the Byzantine Empire was allegedly shown to be to do with the Empire's taste for precious goods- it seems to have spread from Africa, along with the ivory/gold trade.

[Ned]

Well, Molly, except for Charlemagne, Europe really achieved nothing of note for hundreds of yeard. Cite one thing that the Europeans did to advance civilization from 500 to 1000.

[chequita guevara]

Dark Ages don't mean that advancements don't continue. What they mean is that old knowledge is lost. Writing, religion, architecture, farming methods, all were lost for a time, and then rediscovered/invented/learned.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Dark Ages don't mean that advancements don't continue. What they mean is that old knowledge is lost. Writing, religion, architecture, farming methods, all were lost for a time, and then rediscovered/invented/learned.

I'm not sure that agricultural techniques were lost in the transition from empire to dark ages, but engineering definitely suffered. I think it is apparent that the Roman army was probably the major engineering/architectural organization of the times and when it withdrew and dissolved there was nothing to replace it.