Aztlan

[DinoDoc]

Too bad I got to this thread too late. It look like it might have been interesting.

[tandeetaylor]

Zachriel and Ramo

I am so tired of this bull****.

Who are you to say what such a large and diverse group of people wants or doesn't want and how can do define what "wanting to be an American" means anyway?? Stop using that stupid argument of "immigrants don't want to be Americans" until you can prove that statement and define what it means...

And of all the Arabs I know, only one chose to change their name from Hussein to Jason. Most people aren't ashamed of their culture, nor are they afraid of your reactions to their names. Why is Mike more American than Mohammed?? Can someone please explain what the **** it means to be an American?

And as to immigrants being a burden on the American ecomony ( ), this was taken from the American Immigration Lawyers Association webpage:

Immigrants collectively earn $240 billion a year, pay $90 billion a year in taxes, and receive $5 billion in welfare.
New immigrants must prove that they won't be a burden before they are allowed to enter the United States. Compared to the native-born population, immigrants are more likely to be employed, save more of their earnings, and are more likely to start new businesses.
Immigrants have a slightly higher per capita income than natives and a slightly lower household income. But, their income levels rise over time: Among those entering before 1980, median household income in 1989 was $35,733 (vs. $30,176 for natives) and per capita income was $19,423 (vs. $14,367 for natives).
Non-refugee immigrants of working age are less prone to welfare than natives.

[tandeetaylor]

Originally posted by TomCB
As far as the immigration goes, it really does not matter "peaceful" or otherwise. It is illegal and therefore must be stopped.

This is so silly. If something shouldn't be against the law it is not a "must be stopped" situation, it's a "law must be changed" situation.

If we do not, why enforce any laws at all?
One can not chose what laws to enforce, that is called selective prosecution.

Laws should be just. It's not about choosing whether to enforce a law, it's about choosing whether a law should exist.

And as far as the Constitution goes, you should try to quote it instead of the Declaration of Independence.

What's the matter with the Declaration of Independence if it's relevant?

If were to enforce "unalienable rights", we would be at war forever.
Our writings apply to us and only us.

It's not about making sure no one else violates unalienable rights (and why the **** did you put that in quotes, anyway?), it's about not violating them ourselves.

My "hatred" is more of disgust.
These forums are filled with people that think bashing the only people keeping them free is the thing to do.
Paranoia? None. I just love watching liberal governments fall flat on their faces, like CA is now and Europe will later.
We do however, have to be wary of leftists ideals seeping into and destroying our country, just like we should be wary of certain right wing groups.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Can you give me anything to back up that absurd suggestion on the nature of the 1st Amendment?

Can you give anything for your absurd suggestion on the nature of the 1st Amendment?

Making English the official language would not violate the 1st Amendment in any way or form. Dictating official business be done in a certain language is not criminalizing speech.

To say otherwise is utterly sily.

There is nothing unconstitutional with making an official language.

[Ramo]

Establishing an official language isn't the same thing as criminalizing non-English in public matters.

[tandeetaylor]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Making English the official language would not violate the 1st Amendment in any way or form. Dictating official business be done in a certain language is not criminalizing speech.

To say otherwise is utterly sily.

There is nothing unconstitutional with making an official language.

I don't believe he said that. I believe he said it would be unconstitutional to make it illegal to speak another language at all.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Establishing an official language isn't the same thing as criminalizing non-English in public matters.

That is effectively what an official language does. There may not be any real penalties for it, but the statements would be totally disregarded.

[Ramo]

Of course, but it's the penalties part that I have 1st Amendment problems with...

[tandeetaylor]

And let's make blue the official color of the United States while we're at it!

[TomCB]

(Huge Heavy Sigh while shaking head)

ONCE AGAIN, try listening this time. Immigrants USED to try to assimulate, now they try to change US.
They USED to ADD, now they try to CONVERT.
I have no problem with immigration if the immigrants learn the langauge and try to assimluate.
As far as all this "humanity" Bull.
Using that agrument, the US should be shipping food all over the world because people are starving, even if their leaders are starving them or it would destroy local farmers.

There is NO RIGHT to travel and relocate.
You make things up in order to help your argument.
Nations have always had the right (which mean legal, or it can not be called a right) to protect their borders.

Do you know of any countries that are better at protecting civil rights than the US and Britain? Man, what planet do you live on?

As far as me being motivate.
Not at all, they can live how they want to. I will just sit back and watch them fall apart.
FAR more entertaining.

If you think the US is filled with tyranny, you must know of some Utopia that no one else has heard of. Where is it.
Converting US into part of Mexico. You did say that you liked the idea.
As you say you are an Anarchist, I will start to ignore you, as you clearly are not based in the real world.

Constitutional rigth to make an official language.

Actually, there is no right given to the Federal government to do so, and therefore it does not have that right. A Constitutional amendment would be required to do so legally.
I may have said something before that was a bit different, I am not sure. However, after thinking about it, I found no power given to the Federal government that would allow it.
That does not mean they wouldn't do it, they do all sorts of things that are not Constitutional.
Regardless, no US government at any level could make non English illegal. All they could do is not pay attention to people that refused to speak English.

GADS, I agree with Ramo on the penelty part of offical languages.
I hope it is him coming around and not me sliding into the abyss.

As long as the official color is not UN Blue I am willing to discuss it.

[MyraeJ]

How did it get to be conventional wisdom that all cultures are equal? Does it take a genius to look at the poverty and corruption of Mexico and pronounce our culture superior? The childlike wonder shown here is admirable in a child, but not in adults who should be able to make decisions based on the evidence. If not, I hope that you don't vote. Might I suggest that you read TRUST by Francis Fukayama. It might explain the WHY our culture is better, and why it is getting worse.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by MyraeJ
How did it get to be conventional wisdom that all cultures are equal?

Culture is the pursuit of happiness. If people can't keep aspects of their culture, how can you say that they are free? What part of this statement do you disagree with?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.

It doesn't say just the Americans, or just those who agree with the majority. It is very important, especially for Americans, but for all people, to not look down on others. Take America as an example: On one side; the Declaration of Independence, the U.S. Constitution, the Bill of Rights, a Civil War fought over slavery, the Civil Rights movement, Universal Suffrage. On the other side; slavery, ethnic cleansing of Native Americans, the Mexican War, the Spanish-American War, Jim Crow, oppression of immigrant populations, funding death squads in Latin America, funneling arms to Sadaam Hussein and radical groups in Afghanistan. Like all cultures, America is a mixed bag. We hope that we are remembered fondly for the "better angels of our nature," and not, well you know.

How deep can your historical memory be when one forgets that being Irish or Chinese was once a terrible ordeal in America? And that voices, just like yours were raised in protest over immigration of the Germans, the French, the Jews, the Italians, the Japanese, the Russians, and now the Kurds and the Somalis.

And yet, these people made lives here and contributed the best aspects of their culture to the American culture. Do we outlaw Saint Patricks Day as a foreign intrusion on our society? Is not their suffering and perseverence not a part of what makes America what it is?

[DinoDoc]

What part of this statement do you disagree with?

The fact that you keep quoting something of no legal signifigance.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by DinoDoc

What part of this statement do you disagree with?

The fact that you keep quoting something of no legal signifigance.

Thanks for the direct answer.

What made the Founding Fathers more than just a bunch of rabble seizing power? Why does the Declaration refer to a decent respect to the opinions of mankind? Why is it such a seminal document?

The Declaration lays out the legal case for when a people have the right to overthrow an establish order (and when they don't!). It clearly establishes that government is subservient to the unalienable rights of the people.

to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, -- that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it

The Declaration of Independence lays the legal framework necessary to overthrow the previous legally-instituted government. Read it. It really is important.

http://www.archives.gov/exhibit_hall/charters_of_freedom/declaration/declaration.html

Addendum: The Declaration of Independence can be read as a syllogism. Once you accept the basic premise of Liberty, the logical conclusion is Revolutionary.

[Zachriel]

By the way, not one poster has advocated the secession of Aztlan from the United States.



Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

http://www.archives.gov/exhibit_hall/charters_of_freedom/declaration/declaration_transcription.html