Aztlan

[Zachriel]

There are a few people who dream of a new country called Aztlan to be formed by Latinos in the Southwest United States. A few people dream of a separate country called Pacifica to be formed from the northwestern U.S., while New England once considered secession before the Civil War. However, the only serious armed resurrection occured when white Southerners fired on Fort Sumter causing a war that consumed millions of lives. Many of their ancestors still fly that flag of secession.

No serious political leader, North or South of the border, advocates secession of the Southwest U.S. as either practical or even a good thing, though a few academics dream whistfully of such a day. Certainly, they have a right to dream. In point of fact, of the many Latinos I know, all work to assimilate as quickly as possible, while still retaining those aspects of their culture that they love. They want to vote. They want to become a part of the larger American society.

However, in the United States, many conservative political commentators are using the discussion of Aztlan to cause the very social divisions they decry. Ironic. The Americans steal vast tracts of Mexican lands, then (some) worry about a peaceful people stealing it back. Guilt, perhaps?

Meanwhile, Richmond Virginia will get its first statue of Abraham Lincoln. A large and vocal group object. They fly the flag of secession to protest.

So who are the loyal Americans?

Edited for spelling. Doh!

[Lefty Scaevola]

Certainly not you, evil subversive scum.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Certainly not you, evil subversive scum.

Which actually makes the point. In a free society, it is not really a fair question. No one must prove their loyalty by taking a particular political viewpoint. People can express their ideas, they can petition for change, they speak in any language, or they are not truly free.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Zachriel


Which actually makes the point. In a free society, it is not really a fair question. No one must prove their loyalty by taking a particular political viewpoint. People can express their ideas, they can petition for change, they speak in any language, or they are not truly free.

Which parts of the southwest are they working on freeing?

I wish you luck hombre!

I didn't know about the statue of Lincoln, where did you hear about it? As far as i know it's not an issue, but then I haven't heard of the project either.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Which parts of the southwest are they working on freeing?

Aztlan is the mythical place of origin of the Aztec peoples, which is commonly believed to be somewhere in the U.S. Southwest. In the 1840's, the U.S. made a land grab attack against Mexico during a time when there was politically instability in Mexico, capturing "Aztlan".

No serious leader advocates secession. To quote the Declaration of Independence,

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

However, a lot of U.S. right-wing groups want to make a divisive issue of a small minority flying an Aztlan Flag, as an Aztec cultural symbol, with little real political (secessionist) meaning. The American culture is very strong.

This thread was meant to solve a being "off-topic problem" in the Civ3 Forum, by providing an alternate discussion area. Didn't work too well for that purpose.

I didn't know about the statue of Lincoln, where did you hear about it? As far as i know it's not an issue, but then I haven't heard of the project either.

Richmond Times-Dispatch.

Not everyone, of course, is ready to embrace a statue of Lincoln in Richmond. Brag Bolling, commander of the Virginia Division, Sons of Confederate Veterans, expressed strong opposition to it. "I consider this to be a federal government-sponsored and sanctioned act of insensitivity to place a statue of Lincoln in the former capital of the Confederacy, where literally thousands of Virginians died fighting the invasion of our state which was led by Abraham Lincoln."

http://richmondtimesdispatch.com/frontpage/MGBUIYB26AD.html

Edited for spelling. Doh!

[Dr Strangelove]

I thought that the ancestral homelnd of the Aztecs was in the south of the Guadalajara district.

The article makes it clear that the statue was the work of a non-governmental society that is actually based in Richmond. It hasn't been a big deal here, but folks in Lynchburg consider even Richmonders to be foreigners. Our local papers don't carry that much statewide news.

[Zkribbler]

I vote we give them Texas. That'll teach 'em.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
I thought that the ancestral homelnd of the Aztecs was in the south of the Guadalajara district.

No one really knows. There are a number of theories.

[TomCB]

Aztlan

The idea that certain groups want the return land to mexico seems silly, however, take a problem fertilize it by ignoring it and water it with tears, and soon you will have a huge thriving issue.

The bottom line is that we as a people are too cowardly to insist on English as the national language, even though Mexico has no such inhibitions.

Also, we are allowing something like a million people to come here and work illegally, and then enjoy the social programs meant for our own people.

We are getting plundered by this.

I am all in favor of immigration, as long as they have a skill to bring and know the language and plan on staying.
I shudder to think of al the things this country would not have if not for immigration.

The reason only right wing groups are making this an issue is that only right wing groups care what happens to this country, or rather that this country keeps it's ideals in place.
It is the left that is pushing multiculturalism.
And that is doing such harm that if not stopped, we will degrade into duplicates of the countries these people come from.

I am sure there are plenty of immigrants that want to join the greatest nation in the history of the world, however, there are many times more that just want to come here and make their own country here.

Don't believe me.

Walk through a mall and see how many different languages you you here.
Look at signs throughout many cities and government forms, see the different languages?

Is this Aztlan ever going to happen, not likely.

However, if we do nothing, it just may.

As far as feeling guilty, not a bit.

The natives were not doing anything productive with the continent when the Europeans got here anyway.

Might may not always be right, but it is still might.

I refuse to entertain any ideas of returning of land to any group anywhere when it happened more than 75-100 years ago.

At that point the people that lost it are long gone and the people that took it are as well.

They need to move on and get over it.

This goes for ther Southerns that still dream of a Confederate state as well.

[Zachriel]

Re: Aztlan

Originally posted by TomCB
The reason only right wing groups are making this an issue is that only right wing groups care what happens to this country, or rather that this country keeps it's ideals in place.

Answering only the second part of that statement , everyone has a slightly different viewpoint of what this country's ideals might be, but there are some truths which nearly all of us see as self-evident, including the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

It is the left that is pushing multiculturalism.
. . .
Don't believe me.

Walk through a mall and see how many different languages you you here.
Look at signs throughout many cities and government forms, see the different languages?

You answer your own objection. Multiculturalism is a fact. To state the obvious and to propose solutions to such problems doesn't define one's politics.

A country is not free if people can't speak in their own language. Who are we to dictate what other people do? Wasn't that partly what the Protestant Reformation was about? The translation of the Bible into the native tongues, like German and English, opening up a world of knowledge to the common people through Literacy and Printing Press. Languages evolve. They are born, live, and die. So what.

On the other hand, America is a very strong culture and continuing integration will have a very Norteamericano flavor. In fact, nearly all immigrants already learn English as fast as they can because it is in their best interest. And many Latin American children already learn English in school. It doesn't require coercion.

Ultimately, freedom doesn't mean a thing if it comes at the expense of someone else's freedom.

[Dinner]

Should the state force people to speak one language? No. Should the state set up policies where, in time, virtually everyone will be speaking one language? Yes.

[monkspider]

I respectfully disagree Oerdin, if people want to speak Spanish, then so be it. It is an important part of their heritage. There is no need for coercive legislation to try to force otherwise. Besides, there is an unspoken pressure for people to speak English in this country, simply because nearly everything in this country *is* in English.

[Dis]

over my dead body- considering I live in that region

[Dis]

and I don't think they want to give the land to Mexico. Then everyone would leave and move to the rest of the U.S.

although that could be nice. I could have Las Vegas to myself then.

[Dinner]

Las Vegas sucks. I mean it's nice to visit but it's far to hot to live in plus there are so many other good places to live (even in Nevada) which are equally cheap.