Aztlan

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by chairmanmeow
I just said that the 1st Amendment does not prevent the establishment of an official language. Of course, if there were an official language, people could in their own homes speak whatever language they want to speak, but in public matters, they would be required to speak English.

Certainly, it would be appropriate and constitutional to encourage the learning of English. It is a benefit to everybody. On the other hand, it would be appropriate and constitutional to encourage the learning of Spanish or other languages. Indeed, most public schools offer foreign language courses.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by MyraeJ
I'm curious now, Ramo, are you saying that the citizens of a country don't 'own' it? If so, please explain who does.

"Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

http://www.usconstitution.org/GreatAmerican/AmericanDisplay.cfm?&ID=2

--------------------------------

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness."

If these words are to have any meaning, then they must apply to everyone. The struggle for freedom is ongoing. . . .

[MyraeJ]

OK, Zachiel, if we can agree that the citizen of a country should determine it's law (they 'own' it) subject to such restrictions as the constitution, then what if the citizens themselves decide that the doors should be shut? Most polls show Americans in favor of strongly restricting immigration. This includes recent immigrants, who apparently wish to shut the door behind them. BTW Mexican immigration laws are amongst the most restrictive.

[Ramo]

People own the country, not the state. The state has absolutely no justification to cause poverty and suffering through authoritarian immigration policies.

If enough people supported genocide such that it would be legal, does that mean you wouldn't object to it taking place?

[MyraeJ]

"People own the country, not the state." If this state does not mirrors it's peoples intent, then by all means show me one that does. Our government IS elected by the people, and mostly represents them, when they can be bothered to pay attention.
"The state has absolutely no justification to cause poverty and suffering through authoritarian immigration policies. " What evidence do you have that such a thing is taking place? Do you mean that illegal immigrants earn less money than citizens? AMAZING!!! Why would a large group of largely unskilled workers with limited language skills and forced to avoid legal jobs be in such a predicament? You must mean that states should not be allowed to control their own borders, right? Please state THAT for the record so that everyone can judge the rest of your comments in that context.
Frankley speaking, I'm not sure is human beings are mature enough for Democracy, in answer to your genocide question, but I'd rather people had a say in their own futures rather than leave it to the hands of bureaucrats. BTW have you considered that this illegal immigration has artificially suppressed wages in the unskilled sector? And who suffers from that? African Americans of course. Our canary in the coal mine....

[Ramo]

If this state does not mirrors it's peoples intent, then by all means show me one that does.

You miss the point. The state, not the people, is exercising its authority to oppress the people of the world. Many American citizens have absolutely no problems with associating with these people. Why's it your business to tell me who I can and can't associate with?

You must mean that states should not be allowed to control their own borders, right? Please state THAT for the record so that everyone can judge the rest of your comments in that context.

Yes. There isn't much the state should be allowed to do.

What evidence do you have that such a thing is taking place?

1. Our immigration barriers are undermining economic development in both the US and the developing world, thus leaving these countries in perpetual poverty. More labor is vital for economic development here and in the rest of the developed world, and Western education and remittances is vital for economic development in the developing world.
2. Immigration barriers take away one of the fundamental freedoms of a human being, the freedom to travel. That means people who aren't lucky enough to live in a place where one has a good opportunity to learn, live, and work are screwed, and so are their children, and their grandchildren, etc., etc. I consider this an oppression nearly unparalleled in this country.
3. Both legal and illegal immigrants can be considerably screwed over by their employers by holding their legal status over them (threatening to call the INS or screwing with their visas), thus getting wages considerably below market. This has a side effect of artificially undermining the wages of both unskilled and to a lesser extent skilled labor.
4. Immigrants (regardless of legality) have very little political freedom in this country. I hope you understand that political freedom is a good thing.

BTW have you considered that this illegal immigration has artificially suppressed wages in the unskilled sector? And who suffers from that? African Americans of course. Our canary in the coal mine....

My aren't we self-righteous. It's their illegal status that's artifically reducing their wages, not their immigration. In other words, the policies you support are causing this oppression.

And BTW, immigration adds jobs, not takes away jobs. It takes more businesses to handle more people, and the legal unskilled labor in Southern California and Texas isn't enough to handle the demand anyways...

Frankley speaking, I'm not sure is human beings are mature enough for Democracy, in answer to your genocide question, but I'd rather people had a say in their own futures rather than leave it to the hands of bureaucrats.

What does that mean? Either you would support the genocide or you wouldn't. Answer the question.

And where did the hands of bureaucrats come from?

[TomCB]

Poor Poor Ramo

Sorry I have been distracted from this little debate for some time.
The bottom line is that you don't seem to get the basic fact that a flood of immigrants who are unwilling to assimulate, and even long to change their new home into something more like their own home, will do nothing more than turn new into old.
These immigrants would move from area to area, wrecking everything in their paths like locusts.
Constantly searching for a better place and then converting into less than it was.

It is not the color of ones skin that has determined the level of civilization advancements.

It is the basic founding blocks of the civilization is the peoples abiltiy to share certain attributes.
Language, currency, legal system, and whatever code of "honor" they wish to addhere to are just some.
The damage done by the rash of white collar crime and political scandal is hurting our civilization far more than most of us can even conceive at present.

Mexico, as an examply, is rife with corruption and an "elite class" that in only concerned with enriching themselves.

That is hardly the country I want to live in or even admire.

You speak of the "right" of people to go where opportunities exist.
Where is that "right" written?
The countries of England, the US and to a lesser extent France, are the only countries that have put forth the idea of individual rights.

How anyone would want to water down or weaken these nations is beyond me.
Populations such as the Japanese and American Blacks that have embraced the western lifestyle have thrived, those that resist, flounder.

If you are so motivated to better the lives of others, perhaps you should relocate to a country like Mexico and campaign to make it more western.

Is the US perfect, not at all. But our failings are due to the adaption of liberal ideas, which, without exception, have caused long term harm to this country and every country they are being adapted.

Read the 10th Amendment of the Bill of Rights, and take a minute to think about the implications of it.
Let it sink in just how much we Americans ignore it.
That is my campaign.

It also sounds to me that you detest government in total. I for one am no lover of government, but do understand that some government is necessary to avoid anarchy.

There is a saying.

Be careful of what you wish for, you may get it.

And if you wish to convert a chunk of the US into a mexico like state, why wait to see the results, just go to Mexico and see if you like it. I have a feeling that, like so many illegal immigrants, you will decide that the US is a far better place and maybe, just maybe, you will realize how good you have it here and stop wishing for so much of the foolishness I have read from you on here.

[TomCB]

4 Dissident

If all side would adhere that may be fine, but the leftists will and have used the government gun to enforce their will upon the rest of us.
They continue to try to change the rules and force us to react.
Just in the last few days, the new Democratic leader of the House requested that the S.F. Federal building accept Mexican IDs.
These are issued to people that cannot get legal ones and can easily be forged.
This shows the level of stupidity of the left.
Why require ID's at all if you are willing to take just about anything as ID?
The true astonishing thing to those of us not from the left coast, is that they agreed to do it.

This is one of the things that cannot be trusted to the local or even state governments.
The elected officials, being so eager to get re-elected, do anything to purchase votes.
The upside to what is currently going on in CA.
Massive social programs and inept leadership is finally running CA so far into debt that the silient masses are going to have to get involved.
The tax burdens that will be inflicted will drive the most productive out.
The masses have been told that the high taxes are needed to support necessary services, when in fact those services are less than 20% of the total taxes collected.
It is so much fun to see the results of liberalism from afar.

[TomCB]

First Amendment

The First amendment does not say anything about language, either for or against.
You can talk in any langauge you wish, we just don't have to print forms for you in anything other than the offical language.
Nor do we have to provide teachers or government employees to help you access social programs.

As a matter of fact, we should not, that would encourage all to speak English and help millions assimulate into this culture, just like the million of Italians, Irish and Eastern Europeans before them.

[Zachriel]

Re: Poor Poor Ramo

Originally posted by TomCB
Where is that "right" written?

You can find it in the government archives at archives.gov

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.

http://www.archives.gov/exhibit_hall/charters_of_freedom/declaration/declaration.html

[TomCB]

Ok,
Try Article IV Section 4.

"The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union a republican form of government, and shall protect each of them against invasion; and on application of the legislature, or of the executive (when the legislature cannot be convened) against domestic violence."


One could argue, given the predispostion of the immigrants, that they are invading, and thus we are obligate to stop them.

They are entilitle to "life LIberty and Persuit of Happiness" They are just not entitled to it here, otherwise, all immigration laws would be illegal.
Lets also not forget that the US Constitution does not extend all over the world, and thus not everyone enjoys it's protections.

Also, according to the papers of the Founding Fathers, they considered "citizenship" to be of no small importance.

All in all, that was a pretty stupid argument.
I for one, really expect better of you.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by TomCB
One could argue, given the predispostion of the immigrants, that they are invading, and thus we are obligate to stop them.

One "could argue" anything one wishes, but it doesn't make it a valid argument. You are equating peaceful immigration with a military invasion, and friendly peoples with marching armies.

Lets also not forget that the US Constitution does not extend all over the world, and thus not everyone enjoys it's protections.

Not everyone is protected or bound by the U.S. Constitution. But unalienable rights are just that, unalienable, regardless of the Constitution.

What's with all the paranoia and hatred, anyway? America is strong. We have nothing to fear but fear itself.

[TomCB]

As far as the immigration goes, it really does not matter "peaceful" or otherwise. It is illegal and therefore must be stopped.
If we do not, why enforce any laws at all?
One can not chose what laws to enforce, that is called selective prosecution.

And as far as the Constitution goes, you should try to quote it instead of the Declaration of Independence.

The Constitution is LAW, the Declaration of Indepedence is more of an appeal to King George.

If were to enforce "unalienable rights", we would be at war forever.
Our writings apply to us and only us.

My "hatred" is more of disgust.
These forums are filled with people that think bashing the only people keeping them free is the thing to do.
Paranoia? None. I just love watching liberal governments fall flat on their faces, like CA is now and Europe will later.
We do however, have to be wary of leftists ideals seeping into and destroying our country, just like we should be wary of certain right wing groups.

[Ramo]

The bottom line is that you don't seem to get the basic fact that a flood of immigrants who are unwilling to assimulate, and even long to change their new home into something more like their own home, will do nothing more than turn new into old.
These immigrants would move from area to area, wrecking everything in their paths like locusts.
Constantly searching for a better place and then converting into less than it was.

It is not the color of ones skin that has determined the level of civilization advancements.

It is the basic founding blocks of the civilization is the peoples abiltiy to share certain attributes.
Language, currency, legal system, and whatever code of "honor" they wish to addhere to are just some.

Bull****.

Turn back the clock a century or two ago, and people were saying precisely the same thing about Southern and East European immigration. And you know, this immigration is exactly what caused the US to turn into an economic powerhouse. Mexican immigration is good for our economy, it's good for their economy, and stopping it is a rejection of humanity and freedom for the reasons I've already stated.

Mexico, as an examply, is rife with corruption and an "elite class" that in only concerned with enriching themselves.

That is hardly the country I want to live in or even admire.

How does this have anything to do with the argument? Their political and economic systems are oppressive, so we should force them to stay there?

You speak of the "right" of people to go where opportunities exist.
Where is that "right" written?

I never said it was a legal right, simply that the freedom to travel is a vital important freedom. It insures people don't starve and so forth.

It's a universally recognized moral right, as indicated by its place in the UN Declaration of Human Rights.

The countries of England, the US and to a lesser extent France, are the only countries that have put forth the idea of individual rights.

Utter bollocks. And none of these countries are particularly good at defending civil liberties.

If you are so motivated to better the lives of others, perhaps you should relocate to a country like Mexico and campaign to make it more western.

Last time I checked, Mexico is a Western state.

Why should I have to move when oppression could be more effectively reduced on our side of the border?

Is the US perfect, not at all. But our failings are due to the adaption of liberal ideas, which, without exception, have caused long term harm to this country and every country they are being adapted.

If you are so motivated to better the lives of others, why don't you move to a countrly like Sweden and campaign to turn it into a Western state?

It also sounds to me that you detest government in total. I for one am no lover of government, but do understand that some government is necessary to avoid anarchy.

I'm an anarchist, but that doesn't mean I reject all government. It just needs to be severely limited in its authority.

And if you wish to convert a chunk of the US into a mexico like state

Where did I say that? I don't like Mexico's government any more than the US' government.

I have a feeling that, like so many illegal immigrants, you will decide that the US is a far better place and maybe, just maybe, you will realize how good you have it here and stop wishing for so much of the foolishness I have read from you on here.

Yeah, tyranny and oppression is good! I might miss it some day, or something.

And it's funny how you haven't been able to refute my "foolishness."

[Ramo]

Read the 10th Amendment of the Bill of Rights, and take a minute to think about the implications of it.

I'm very familiar with the 10th. What's your point?

On the subject of the Constitution, I suggest taking another look at the 9th Amendment. The people retain rights not enumerated in the Constitution.