The spirit of Franco is alive and well

[Bereta_Eder]

yeth we will getdem back

[Palaiologos]

Actually i am one of the few Greeks that do not want to get the marbles back. I think they are maintained better in England, and are exhibited to more people. The Greek goverment only claims they want them back for propaganda reasons.

And why the hell should Turkey complain about Perganum?

That is like saying Germany should complain for all those French cultural artifacts the Americans and Russians took when they invaded the Reich.

P.S Are you certain that only the USSR supported the Spanish gov.? I know that France send huge ammounts of aid, and that many American volunteers fought for the lefts.Enlighten me, please.

[Evil Knevil]

Franco got troops(an entire Italian Army), weapons and unlimited loans.

The Republicans got no aid from the French Government, no aid from the British Government, and they had to buy their weapons from the USSR with gold buillion- -in advance!!

Seriously though, the French Government refused to aid the Spanish Government, due to right-wing riots and eventually due to a change in government. A few arms were smuggled, but that was it. The National Government overuled Leon Blums decision to export arms. Apparently he was weeping in the arms of the Spanish Ambassador

The British refused to aid the Government, claiming itself to neutral. Despite

1/ Treaties signed with Spain, offering defense of her legitmate Government.

2/ A League of Nations mandate.

Instead she eventually signed a non-intervention treaty with Italy and Germany. They immediately converted their combat forces into volunteers and started sinking Russian convoys with impunity.

Example: During the summer of '36 the British refused to aid a damaged Government cruiser by allowing it to dock at Gibraltar. Instead she went down with few survivors. This was even before Franco had unified the fronts and declared a new Spanish Government.

The British Ambassador sent a message to the PM at the start of the war " A victory for the Government, will be a victory for the Red Peril".

He later said "Our British interests lie with the Nationalists".


As far as the effectiveness of the volunteer services on the Government side.... Most were not combat experienced and were they were mostly gone by late 1937.

They had only really helped by being cannon fodder at the battle of Madrid...

Although their overall usefulness has been greatly debated, none of the Democratic governments gave their support to these volunteer services.

[Serb]

Only USSR send help while GB, France and USA just turned away and whistle.
Saying otherwise is total ignorance. Esp I like this claim:

Whereas Franco had only Italy and Germany to count on.

Poor, little Franco- every one was against him, he had no choice but to cooperate with nazis.
*throw up*

[Palaiologos]

What about the "International brigades"? They were USA and French volunteers, were they not? Even some Greeks went.And among them the father of a notorious Greek terrorist(Giotopoulos). I guess that this is what all lefts become of. I know for a fact that the Russians sent armoured forces(the crews were Spanish though).

I know Germany sent the "Condor" airforce divission.
Italy sent, i think about 3.000 men along with weapons, money etc.

And anyway had Franco lost, Spain would be a pro-communist state.

[Hueij]

And anyway had Franco lost, Spain would be a pro-communist state.

Yep, anything better than a pro-communist state. Ask the people of Guernica...

BTW, I resent that remark about all leftists becoming terrorists...

[Palaiologos]

Originally posted by Hueij
BTW, I resent that remark about all leftists becoming terrorists...

Sorry for that. I did not mean it anyway, nor do i believe it.

It is just that in Greece ALL lefts are suportive of terrorism.

[Tolls]

...and the Republican government was not communist at the start of the civil war...it was leftist (no denying), but not communist. Indeed it was the civil war itself that let the Soviet Union infiltrate many of the organisations and eventually destroy the other republican elements...without the civil war I seriously doubt they'd have made gains.

[C0ckney]

Franco got troops(an entire Italian Army), weapons and unlimited loans.

yes but being italian troops they were of about as much use as you might expect

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Palaiologos
What about the "International brigades"? They were USA and French volunteers, were they not? Even some Greeks went.

They went on their own, most of the time having to sneak their way in. The Canadian government, for instance, issued passports during that period that were valid anywhere in the world except Spain.

The Italians actually sent regular forces. There's a big difference.

Franco was a scum-sucking Nazi who should have had his ass kicked by the Allies while they were over there. His supporters were fascist thugs, and he was a smaller fascist thug.

On topic, I wonder where Spain of all places got the balls to demand that somebody else return something taken in the 18th century. The UK should tell them to complain to somebody who cares. Gibraltar's been British for 250 years, and should remain that way as long as its people want to. The Spanish government has no legitimate interest in getting it back.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Palaiologos
P.S Are you certain that only the USSR supported the Spanish gov.? I know that France send huge ammounts of aid, and that many American volunteers fought for the lefts.Enlighten me, please.

The French sealed the border, and international volunteers had to sneak across the Pyrenees at night.

French aid ceased on August 8, 1936. It had barely begun by that point. Italian and German aid continued through the end of the war.

[Palaiologos]

Originally posted by Frogger

The Italians actually sent regular forces. There's a big difference.

On topic, I wonder where Spain of all places got the balls to demand that somebody else return something taken in the 18th century. The UK should tell them to complain to somebody who cares. Gibraltar's been British for 250 years, and should remain that way as long as its people want to. The Spanish government has no legitimate interest in getting it back.

What's the diference?





250 years?

Are you serrious?

Thessalonica was under Ottoman control for over 450 years, before the Greek army liberated it in the 1912 blitzkrieg. So were other cities. Smyrna for instance was claimed briefly in 1922 and was Ottoman for more than 600 years.

Of course in all those cities there was a large greek population wanting to unite with Mother Greece.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Palaiologos
What about the "International brigades"? They were USA and French volunteers, were they not? Even some Greeks went.And among them the father of a notorious Greek terrorist(Giotopoulos). I guess that this is what all lefts become of. I know for a fact that the Russians sent armoured forces(the crews were Spanish though).

They were volunteers while Soviet Union sent its REGULAR forces equiped with tanks and aircrafts. You don't understant the difference between volunteer movement and military help programm launched by government?
Then hint for you: volunteers usualy don't have tanks, planes, feild guns, etc. They usually don't receive ammunition and supplies from government that send them to war.

And anyway had Franco lost, Spain would be a pro-communist state.

And you consider that it's worse then being a fascist state, which it was after Franco's victory?

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Palaiologos



What's the diference?





250 years?

Are you serrious?

Thessalonica was under Ottoman control for over 450 years, before the Greek army liberated it in the 1912 blitzkrieg. So were other cities. Smyrna for instance was claimed briefly in 1922 and was Ottoman for more than 600 years.

Of course in all those cities there was a large greek population wanting to unite with Mother Greece.

Spain only controlled Gibraltar for the 250 years prior to that. The Moors had it before the final reconquista. So the Spaniards really have no claim to it, and certainly not as much a claim as the British. It's just them trying to strut their stuff 250 years after the fact.

[Tolls]

"...while Soviet Union sent its REGULAR forces ..."

I'm guessing that was a typo...