The spirit of Franco is alive and well

[Dauphin]

Actually, the last remnants of the empire are clinging to us.

[C0ckney]

indeed. the spanish should just give it up, the people want to be british, we've owned the damn place longer than the spanish ever did and that should be the end of the matter.

[Jay Bee]

Out of curiosity, how many of you guys have actually read the Treaty of Utrecht?

Surprise, surprise: Blair et al did.

[Evil Knevil]

We should tax the bastards like we do on the mainland, make it a British consituency, that'll change their minds quickly. (Gibraltar is a miserable tax haven)

[Dauphin]

Jay Bee, you mean this bit?

The Catholic King does hereby, for himself, his heirs and successors, yield to the Crown of Great Britain the full and entire propriety of the town and castle of Gibraltar, together with the port, fortifications, and forts thereunto belonging; and he gives up the said propriety to be held and enjoyed absolutely with all manner of right for ever, without any exception or impediment whatsoever.

[Jay Bee]

Nope, no one has ever argued against that. Now find me please the passage where the future of Gibraltar is talked about in the event the UK relinquished sovereignity. I could post it in Spanish but I don't think it'd be of much use

[Tolls]

"And in case it shall hereafter seem meet to the Crown of Great Britain to grant , sell or by any means to alienate therefrom the propriety of the said town of Gibraltar, it is hereby agreed and concluded that the preference of having the sale shall always be given to the Crown of Spain before any others. "

Which would have little to do with a referendum by the population for joint sovereignity...especially since that joint sovereignity would be with Spain. Maybe if we were to offer joint sovereignity with Morroco (or anyone else for that matter) this clause could be called upon, but I don't see quite how it applies in this situation.

[Jay Bee]

Simple, the Treaty clearly states that future of the Rock has to be negotiated between the governments of Britain or Spain first, not by the population of the Rock. Please note that when the rock changed hands in the XVIII century the Gibraltarians were not asked either, they were just kicked out. Thus according to the Treaty the referendum was, strictu sensu, irrelevant. An entirely different thing is that the Gibraltarians want to be heard by their homeland.

The rock is British and will stay British as long as the British wish it so. I don't think anybody disputes that. However, the fact that the British and Spanish governments maintain periodic talks about it means that things might eventually change. The joint sovereignity was just an idea to get some things going.

[Tolls]

The clause does not say anything about how the British government comes to its decision to grant/sell/.whatever Gibraltar...in other words it does not preclude the use of a referendum at all...simply because Utrecht did not involve a referendum, does not prevent one being used now.

[Jay Bee]

Of course, isn't that, more or less, wat I just wrote? But the referendum was organized by the Gibraltarians themselves, not the British government.

[Tolls]

"Simple, the Treaty clearly states that future of the Rock has to be negotiated between the governments of Britain or Spain first, not by the population of the Rock. "

Is what you said, but there is nothing in the clause that prevents the government from taking its decisions based on a referendum. In other words, the population are allowed to make their voice heard, and the government is allowed to act upon the results of that.

[Bereta_Eder]

What does Franco have to do with Gibraltar?

This is simply an opportunity to say, go Argentina, go Spain and Go Marbles of Parthenon!

[Bereta_Eder]

Now that I think about it, quit stealing peoples' things!

[Palaiologos]

Originally posted by Silpy
2) I hate Franco. How can you be positive about a reactionry military dictator who rose against the demacraticy elected goverment of the Republic!

The "goverment" you are refering too, were communists, and it was in a time communists were perceived as a threat.

Franco did not act alone or accompanied by a few fanatics. The majority of the people were with him.
Do not forget that the Soviet union, France, England, USA all backed up the sossialists and anarchists that opposed Franco.

Whereas Franco had only Italy and Germany to count on.

And IMHO oppinion a working dictarship, is far more efficient than a democracy.

[Evil Knevil]

Oh don't get started on the Spanish Civil War.....

Or the fact that only the USSR supported the elected Government in Spain.

Or the fact that the Roman Empire died in a ditch.

Or that you think dictatorship is a good thing.

Otherwise you wont get those East Freize Marbles back!

What are you going to do with them anyway? Stick them in another decaying museum, along with the other fragments.

We don't hear Turkey complaining about the Pergamon museum, do we?