Hard Core Conservatives Defecting From Bush?

[Darius871]

Originally posted by Sava

the point is that the amount of Republicans in this country is small.

As Imran said there are a small number of Democrats as well, but you also seem to assume that if people who don't vote wouldn't vote Republican if they were forced to vote. No one can know this for sure.

And that's why Gore won the popular vote.

That doesn't prove in any way that there were more Gore supporters than Bush supporters, because the electoral college system automatically makes the 'popular vote' an unreliable statistic. Say you live in a state where it's painfully obvious that one of the candidates will win by a wide margin (like Texas or California), and you don't bother to vote.

Another example is uncounted absentee ballots. Say Gore wins in a state by a million votes, and then 999,999 absentee ballots come in. Those ballots aren't counted because they couldn't possibly have any effect on who wins that state. Since absentee ballots are traditionally tilted to the right, had those ballots been counted it might have changed the 100,000 or so margin in the popular vote.

For these two reasons you can say Gore won the popular vote as it is counted, but the 'popular vote' that we see in an election with the electoral college system isn't a carbon copy of the vote we'd see were the system based on a national popular vote. If there were no electoral college system Gore may still have won anyway, but you can't be sure based on a statistic as totally unreliable as the popular vote as it is collected under the current system.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Darius871
Another example is uncounted absentee ballots. Say Gore wins in a state by a million votes, and then 999,999 absentee ballots come in. Those ballots aren't counted because they couldn't possibly have any effect on who wins that state. Since absentee ballots are traditionally tilted to the right, had those ballots been counted it might have changed the 100,000 or so margin in the popular vote.

Uh, absentee ballots are counted regardless of whether there is enough to change the outcome of the election. All votes are counted.

'Cept in Florida, of course.

[Darius871]

You sure about that? At the time when people kept whining 'popular vote this' and 'popular vote that', I read that in fact over a million California ballots weren't entered into the popular vote because of their obsolescence. It was 2 years ago and I forget where, but if you want I'll look the damn thing up.

At any rate, the first factor I mentioned still holds. Don't get me wrong, I'm not making the bald-faced assertion that Gore didn't win the popular vote, just saying that it's an unrealistic stat when used to define the number of Dems and Republicans in the entire nation. Can we at least agree there?

[Kepler]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Actually Sava, your percentages are good, but I think your absolute numbers are off. I believe in this last election, 49% of registered voters voted.

In the prez election, yes. It's even better for the midterm election -- about 35% of eligible voters did their thing, and by pure numbers it was almost an exact 50/50 split (the GOP only picked up ground because of overrepresentation of small states -- in reality, by one man one vote you'd still have a decent Democratic majority in the House).

Effectively, 17% percent of eligible voters (in control of about 67% of all American wealth) have a stranglehold on all three branches. It's the Dems' own fault for not being able to motivate the 50% of eligible voters who NEVER vote -- almost all of whom are poor and or minority and even farther left than the Dems.

[Ming]

They can "defect" all they want... but when it comes down to a real election, given a choice between Bush and some liberal Dem... who do you think they are going to vote for

[Sava]

Actually, my point was to show that there are more Dem's in the country ... it was to show that if people got off their lazy asses and voted, we could get these moronic, freedom stealing, corporate pocket-filling, environment destroying, self-righteous religious wackos out of office.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Darius871
You sure about that? At the time when people kept whining 'popular vote this' and 'popular vote that', I read that in fact over a million California ballots weren't entered into the popular vote because of their obsolescence. It was 2 years ago and I forget where, but if you want I'll look the damn thing up.

At any rate, the first factor I mentioned still holds. Don't get me wrong, I'm not making the bald-faced assertion that Gore didn't win the popular vote, just saying that it's an unrealistic stat when used to define the number of Dems and Republicans in the entire nation. Can we at least agree there?

I can't think of anything in election law that would allow you to disregard legal ballots. Obsolesence isn't a factor--everyone's vote is counted.

Of course it doesn't prove there are more Democrats, as people aren't required to vote along party lines.

However, by registration numbers, Democrats still hold an edge in the country over Republicans. It has shrunk over the past few years, but they still have an edge. The problem is their voters are harder to get to the polls. Contrary to Sava's assertion, it isn't pure laziness. It's about time, having to work, disillusionment with the candidates, and in many cases blatant misinformation campaigns against poor urban and minority voters.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Obsolesence isn't a factor--everyone's vote is counted.

And in Chicago... Many of the Democrats get their vote counted multiple times

[Boris Godunov]

That joke starts to get stale after it is repeated for the millionth time, Ming.

[Ming]

It's not a joke... but the truth.
I always laugh when people whine that Gore won the popular vote, because in Chicago, and other major democratic cities, many extra votes were counted for Gore... more than enough to make the difference in the total popular vote.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

uh huh

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

I don't really understand why Americans vote for a party that seems to be controlled by the very wealthy few, and the corporations. But then, both parties fit that description. Which probably explains why so many people don't vote at all.

Sadly it's the same here... no meaningful choices, really. Hopefully, the general populace can wait for the next oedo year, and then...

[Giancarlo]

Six, that is a wrong assessment... I think differently, the party is not controlled by the wealthy few. And what the hell is wrong with a corporation? The only people who say corporations are bad are commies.

[David Floyd]

it was to show that if people got off their lazy asses and voted, we could get these moronic, freedom stealing, corporate pocket-filling, environment destroying, self-righteous religious wackos out of office.

And replace them with other moronic, freedom stealing, corporate pocket-filling, environment destroying, self righteous religious wackos?

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Fez
Six, that is a wrong assessment... I think differently,

That seems to be your usual argument. Just because you don't agree, doesn't make it wrong.

And what the hell is wrong with a corporation?

Nothing in itself - unless the corporation(s) have greater influence with government than the actual voting citizens. We can always vote out a government - but you can't vote out the influence big oil (for example) has with governments. When corporations start flexing their muscle in government, democracy erodes.

It doesn't bother you that western governments are more often influenced by corporate donors and lobbyists than by individual citizens? It doesn't bother you that multinationals routinely threaten (i.e. blackmail) to move their production lines out of countries that don't enact corporate friendly labour laws? It doesn't bother you that these same corporations evade taxes by keeping their head offices in tax-free jurisdictions, despite having virtually no business ties to these jurisdictions?

If these things don't bother you...

The only people who say corporations are bad are commies.

The only people who generalize like this are Fezzes. I'd rather be a commie.