Israeli Army Kills 8-Year-Old Palestinian Boy

[Felch]

So? What's so special about countries? I don't have a personal country, although Felchland would be a cool place to live.

What I do instead is get along with the people around me. There's nothing sacred about Palestinians that says they have to have a nation. They can live just as happily wherever they are, as long as they get along.

I know the Israelis started the terrorism back in the fourties. That doesn't mean the Palestinians shouldn't end the terrorism now. It's time to get past silly notions of nationalism and realize that we're all humans and we can easily get along as long as one people.

[CyberGnu]

Jules, I don't think you got my meaning. Israelis can't use the suffering they are experiencing as an excuse, as it is their own actiosn that cause the suffering. It is a circular argument.

The better way you speak of simply for Israel to give up their imperial ambitions. Leave palestine, let the palestinians have self determination, compensate the people Israel drove out. But this isn't going to happen unless the US forces Israel to do so: during its 50 year long history, Israel has never taken the moral choice unless forced to do so.

I think that applies more to Netanyahu than Sharon. Sharon hasn't actually said, "No peace...period," whereas Netanyahu has said so. Sharon is bad, but Netanyahu is much worse.

Can't say I see any difference between the two... Only in posturing, where the one currently not in power is the most hawkish.

[Dr. Nick]

Felch, I'm not arguing it isn't, but they have a right to self determination as much as the Israelis. If it were upto me, I'd also wish they got along, but the hippy shyte just won't work.

[Felch]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
The better way you speak of simply for Israel to give up their imperial ambitions. Leave palestine, let the palestinians have self determination, compensate the people Israel drove out. But this isn't going to happen unless the US forces Israel to do so: during its 50 year long history, Israel has never taken the moral choice unless forced to do so.

The best thing would be if people could get along. But this isn't going to happen unless Europe and the US force Israel and the Palestinians to do so: during their 50 year long history, Israel and the Palestinians have never taken the moral choice unless forced to do so.

[Felch]

S'all good, El Awrence. I just like jumping up and taking the moral high ground on occasion. It's fun to imagine if I had a temporary lobotamy and started acting like CyberGnu or David Floyd, unfettered by reality and only seeing my own ideology.

[CyberGnu]

I think he means peacefully protesting and not killing innocent people in bombings. Those two kind of go together.

If the pals were totally peaceful in 1990 they would have had my support. If they were peaceful now they'd have my support. But **** if I'll give support to a bunch of savages who bomb buses, and then celebrate in the streets. The Israelis at least don't give candy to children when they kill innocent civilians.

So you condemn the entire nation based on one group of extremists?

Right now most palestinians side with Hamas, since Israel showed that they never intended to fulfill their Oslo obligations anyway. But in the years between 1990 and 1996, most palestinians actually believed that the Oslo process would peacefully lead to a palestinian nation, and consequently put their energies into makeing palestine a prosperous nation.

[CyberGnu]

It's fun to imagine if I had a temporary lobotamy and started acting like CyberGnu or David Floyd, unfettered by reality and only seeing my own ideology.

And how is that, exactly?

[Felch]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
So you condemn the entire nation based on one group of extremists?

Given that the entire nation has shown broad support for that one group of extremists - yes. If the Palestinians did not openly applaud the actions of the extremists, I would not judge them by the actions of the extremists. Does that make sense?

Right now most palestinians side with Hamas, since Israel showed that they never intended to fulfill their Oslo obligations anyway. But in the years between 1990 and 1996, most palestinians actually believed that the Oslo process would peacefully lead to a palestinian nation, and consequently put their energies into makeing palestine a prosperous nation.

Okay, that's great, the Palestinians were a great bunch of people, and deserved to live happily and in peace. Oh, and it's 2002 right now by the way.

[CyberGnu]

Re-reading your posts on this page I realize that you have no intention of serious debate. Trolling followed by personal insults... Nice.

Please call again if you have anything intelligent to say.

[Zylka]

Originally posted by CyberGnu


And how is that, exactly?

For starters - answering this:

When the palestinians start peaceably protesting against the Israeli actions, then they'll have my sympathy. As long as they keep blowing themselves up in retaliations, I won't sympathize with them.

With this:

Ixnay, so you became a palestinian supporter in 1990?

What the f*ck kind of ignorant dreamworld do you live in???

[Felch]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
And how is that, exactly?

Anti-Israeli, pro-Palestinian, and impossible to waver in any other direction. You know full well that when an ME debate comes up you're as predictable as David Floyd in a debate about government's role. Don't take it badly that you're repetetive, it's nice to know that there are costants in the world.

My own ideology is that people should get along and not fight over pointless crap like who violated what accord. If the accord was violated, big deal. That doesn't mean that people should keep fighting and causing so much devastation. I know that my ideology is unrealistic, just like David's and your's. But it is a dream, and dreams aren't a bad thing to have.

[CyberGnu]

What the f*ck kind of ignorant dreamworld do you live in???

A magical world where people are intelligent and can respond coherently with logical arguments. I see you are not familiar with this world.

[Felch]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Re-reading your posts on this page I realize that you have no intention of serious debate. Trolling followed by personal insults... Nice.

Please call again if you have anything intelligent to say.

Saying that people should stop killing each other is not a troll. Saying that you are an ideologue is not a personal insult. The former is a statement of opinion, and the latter of fact.

[Felch]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
A magical world where people are intelligent and can respond coherently with logical arguments. I see you are not familiar with this world.

I think Zylka's problem was that your response wasn't logical. It assumed that Ixnay was fully aware of the Palestinian situation in 1990, that he held the same views then, and that he would have continued to support them even when they failed to meet the criteria he set out.

[CyberGnu]

Anti-Israeli, pro-Palestinian, and impossible to waver in any other direction. You know full well that when an ME debate comes up you're as predictable as David Floyd in a debate about government's role. Don't take it badly that you're repetetive, it's nice to know that there are costants in the world.

I don't take that part badly. Why would I change? No one has yet managed to present a good argument why theft of aggression should be allowed.

It is the "lobotomy" part I take offense at.

My own ideology is that people should get along and not fight over pointless crap like who violated what accord. If the accord was violated, big deal. That doesn't mean that people should keep fighting and causing so much devastation. I know that my ideology is unrealistic, just like David's and your's. But it is a dream, and dreams aren't a bad thing to have.

What part of my ideology is unrealistic? That peace will only come is Israel is forced to leave palestine?