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  • #61
    The claim that Islam is a naturally violent relegion is a massive one, whihc calls for serious evidence. I must say that it has certainly failed to materialize ever here in Poly.

    I had the great ability, while in college, to work at one of the biggest academic research libs. in the world. Many times, I would go read the back issues of Time and newsweek, both serties going back to their foundations, in the 1920's. Reading the accounts of WW2 were particvularly interesting. One good thing about Newsmagazines as a source of history is that while the author is full of existing prejudices, they are free of the future prejudices authors of history books have.

    Well, I decided to look at the issues dealing with the Iranina revoltuion, and back then, in early 1979, Newsweek had to come out with an issue to try to introduce Islam to Americans. Why, because Islam was not much of an issue for them back then. Mullahs, and Ayatohllas and the Talibn, Wahhabism and Mujahadeen were al terms that had no meanig back then. In fact, much of the coverage of the Iranina revoltuion asked more about the Soviet role, than any worryng about Khomeini. Why? Becuase back in 1979 Islamist violence was a non-issue. The Hostage crisis, the assasination of Saddat, Hizbullah, Afghanistan, and all else were in the future.

    Now, if Islam is so inherently violent, if the Quran is such a dealy book, were was this violence in 1972? That only 30 years folks, fine, longer than the life of 90% of Poly posters, but in the life of a 1400 year old relegion, nothing. Yet in 1972 none of the violence we speak of today existed. The question to ask then is why, in these last 30 years, has this violence come forward. Alkso important is why it matters so much for the West.

    IN the 1960's and early 70's, Asia was the cusp. Millions dead in Korea, Vietnam, and Cambodia each. Half a million suspected communists were killed by Suharto in the mid 60's.
    IN the early 70's and 1980's, it was Latin America. Thousands in Chile, Argentina, Nicaragua. Tens of thousands in Colombia, Peru, El Salvador. 150,000 in Guatemala.

    From the 60's to today, violenece in Southern Africa: Sierra Leon, Liberia, Angola, Ethiopia, Angola, the bloodbaths of Central Africa. (Very few Muslims)

    From the early 80's to today, violenece accross the muslim world were Islam itself is an issue. The deadliest of all these conflicts is Sudan, in Africa, with 2.5 million dead. The next bloodiest, Algeria, were well over 100,000 died in the late 90's. After a decade Kashmir may approach 100,000. All the other conflcits are way behind. So even if Islam is violent, as far as body count goes, it has been small. All acts of terrorism against the West and Israel in the last 50 years may have killed 7000 people, tops. That's one day of violence in all christian Rwanda back in 1994, in fact,less.

    Has Islam been hijacked? How does one Hijack a relegion of 1 billion peolple? I find the question silly. 99.9% of Muslims have never been part fo a violent Islamist organization. 1/10% is of course still 1 million people, but that hardly tells you about the life of the 999,999 Million others.

    What about the question of why?
    Well, look back at 1972. Who rules the Islamist world? Authoritarian regimes, for the most part secularizing. Some with the US, others with the USSR. And accross the board, they failed. They failed to significantly improve the lives of their citizens. These failures lead to revolution, to upheaval. Some regimes, like Pakistan, turned to islam to woo the crowd. Others, like Egypt and Syria, were strong enough to crush any opposition. Others, like the Shah, fell. And as resentment and revoltuion came, the superpowers stepped in to influence the game. One of the tools the US and conservative allies used was to foster radical islam, for Islamists hate Communists. The great infamous system of Madrasas finaced by Saudi Arabia? They came in the late 70's and 80's as the Saudis and the US sought to destroy socialists and communists.

    The failure of the authoritarian and secularizing regimes, wether they were right or left, left many to look for a solutuion. And there was a new way, the way of modern Political islam. It had been building its foundations, primarilly in Egypt, since the 1920's. But it was too weak to take on the right backed by the US and UK, or socialists, backed by the USSR. But when both groups failed to imporve things, their chance came.
    If you don't like reality, change it! me
    "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
    "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
    "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
      There's nothing in the Quran against hierarchy


      Actually Islam is very anti-hierarchy. That is why there is no Pope-like Imam. No Imam has to answer to another. They are seperate. So there is no elaborate setup like the Catholic Church. That, by itself, indicates a lack of hierarchy.
      Perhaps it would be better if it were. Then maybe not just anyone with delusions of grandure can call for jihad over every little incident. But being a Protestant, I can sympathise with the whole lets do our own thing.
      Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We are evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that. --Saul Tigh

      Comment


      • #63
        I got to know a guy that ran the mosque here in town after a few of my classes went there several times and he never struck me as the holy war type. Very soft spoken and nice. While most of the muslims here wear western clothes he still wears what he is used to. Just thought I would throw that in.
        Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We are evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that. --Saul Tigh

        Comment


        • #64
          Gepap, in '79, the Ayatollah came to power in Iran and sparked at least interest in fundamentalist Islam across the Muslim world. Then came the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. We equipped the Mujahadeen to resist the invaders in a form of Jihad. Sadat was then murdered by fundies. At the same time, Hizbollah blew up our Marine barracks in Lebannon.

          The watershed year for radical Islam appears to be 1979 and the Iranian revolution.
          http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Ned
            Clearly, these acts are condemned by all Christian church leaders.
            Right - but they contradict large parts of the bible by doing so - the problem is that both, the bible and quran are such contradictory books, so you can't interpret them without contradicting certain parts of them - some examples:

            [W]hen the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance of them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord . . . (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9). “[H]e that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him”(John 3:36).

            “If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods . . . thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people . . . If thou shalt hear . . . Certain men . . . have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods . . . Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants ofthat city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. But the women, and the little ones . . . shalt thou take unto thyself . . . But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth” (Deuteronomy13:6-16).

            “And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both males, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men who were before the house. And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go you forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city” (Ezekiel 9:5-7).

            That raises the question: Are anti-violent christian leaders heretics by disregarding the bible ?

            Comment


            • #66
              We all know the contrast between the old and the new Testament. As to the portions if the new testament you quote, the vengence is to damn the unbeliever to hell. There is no injunction to kill the unbelieve unless he submits and begins to pay the $$$$.

              I hear people say that there is something in the Koran which preachs tolerance of other beliefs. Where are the quotes.

              And yes, I have read the Koran - but only once. I found it almost unreadable. Just a long series of injunctions, praise Allah and slay the unbeliever until he submits or converts.
              http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Sava
                Many Pro-Life wackos murder abortion doctors in the name of Christianity, but I don't blame all of Christianity for the wrong-doings of a few idiots.
                Many? How many?
                He's got the Midas touch.
                But he touched it too much!
                Hey Goldmember, Hey Goldmember!

                Comment


                • #68
                  lots of them!!!!!!!!! REALLLY !!!!!!!!
                  urgh.NSFW

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Ned
                    We all know the contrast between the old and the new Testament. As to the portions if the new testament you quote, the vengence is to damn the unbeliever to hell. There is no injunction to kill the unbelieve unless he submits and begins to pay the $$$$.

                    I hear people say that there is something in the Koran which preachs tolerance of other beliefs. Where are the quotes.

                    And yes, I have read the Koran - but only once. I found it almost unreadable. Just a long series of injunctions, praise Allah and slay the unbeliever until he submits or converts.
                    The point is that nowhere in the Bible does it make clear not to follow the Old Testament, the idea of reading the New Testament literally and the Old Testament figuratively is a relatively new and liberal idea. Jesus was a teacher of the Old Testament, he was a rabbi.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Ned
                      I wish people would simply stop defending those who act violently in the name of Islam by pointing out that there are some random examples of the same in Christianity. Clearly, these acts are condemned by all Christian church leaders.

                      The same is not true though with Islamic leaders who seem to praise violence by calling suicide bombers and pilots martyrs.
                      Who is defending those who act violently here?!? People are defending a faith which, like any other, can be interpreted in different lights. The point is that unholy acts have been defended and even provoked or carried out by Christian Church leaders throughout history, that christianity like any other religion is vulnerable to misinterpretation or misuse by leaders who are as subject to human fallibility and sin as their congregations.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by GePap
                        The claim that Islam is a naturally violent relegion is a massive one, whihc calls for serious evidence. I must say that it has certainly failed to materialize ever here in Poly.

                        I had the great ability, while in college, to work at one of the biggest academic research libs. in the world. Many times, I would go read the back issues of Time and newsweek, both serties going back to their foundations, in the 1920's. Reading the accounts of WW2 were particvularly interesting. One good thing about Newsmagazines as a source of history is that while the author is full of existing prejudices, they are free of the future prejudices authors of history books have.

                        Well, I decided to look at the issues dealing with the Iranina revoltuion, and back then, in early 1979, Newsweek had to come out with an issue to try to introduce Islam to Americans. Why, because Islam was not much of an issue for them back then. Mullahs, and Ayatohllas and the Talibn, Wahhabism and Mujahadeen were al terms that had no meanig back then. In fact, much of the coverage of the Iranina revoltuion asked more about the Soviet role, than any worryng about Khomeini. Why? Becuase back in 1979 Islamist violence was a non-issue. The Hostage crisis, the assasination of Saddat, Hizbullah, Afghanistan, and all else were in the future.

                        Now, if Islam is so inherently violent, if the Quran is such a dealy book, were was this violence in 1972? That only 30 years folks, fine, longer than the life of 90% of Poly posters, but in the life of a 1400 year old relegion, nothing. Yet in 1972 none of the violence we speak of today existed. The question to ask then is why, in these last 30 years, has this violence come forward. Alkso important is why it matters so much for the West.

                        IN the 1960's and early 70's, Asia was the cusp. Millions dead in Korea, Vietnam, and Cambodia each. Half a million suspected communists were killed by Suharto in the mid 60's.
                        IN the early 70's and 1980's, it was Latin America. Thousands in Chile, Argentina, Nicaragua. Tens of thousands in Colombia, Peru, El Salvador. 150,000 in Guatemala.

                        From the 60's to today, violenece in Southern Africa: Sierra Leon, Liberia, Angola, Ethiopia, Angola, the bloodbaths of Central Africa. (Very few Muslims)

                        From the early 80's to today, violenece accross the muslim world were Islam itself is an issue. The deadliest of all these conflicts is Sudan, in Africa, with 2.5 million dead. The next bloodiest, Algeria, were well over 100,000 died in the late 90's. After a decade Kashmir may approach 100,000. All the other conflcits are way behind. So even if Islam is violent, as far as body count goes, it has been small. All acts of terrorism against the West and Israel in the last 50 years may have killed 7000 people, tops. That's one day of violence in all christian Rwanda back in 1994, in fact,less.

                        Has Islam been hijacked? How does one Hijack a relegion of 1 billion peolple? I find the question silly. 99.9% of Muslims have never been part fo a violent Islamist organization. 1/10% is of course still 1 million people, but that hardly tells you about the life of the 999,999 Million others.

                        What about the question of why?
                        Well, look back at 1972. Who rules the Islamist world? Authoritarian regimes, for the most part secularizing. Some with the US, others with the USSR. And accross the board, they failed. They failed to significantly improve the lives of their citizens. These failures lead to revolution, to upheaval. Some regimes, like Pakistan, turned to islam to woo the crowd. Others, like Egypt and Syria, were strong enough to crush any opposition. Others, like the Shah, fell. And as resentment and revoltuion came, the superpowers stepped in to influence the game. One of the tools the US and conservative allies used was to foster radical islam, for Islamists hate Communists. The great infamous system of Madrasas finaced by Saudi Arabia? They came in the late 70's and 80's as the Saudis and the US sought to destroy socialists and communists.

                        The failure of the authoritarian and secularizing regimes, wether they were right or left, left many to look for a solutuion. And there was a new way, the way of modern Political islam. It had been building its foundations, primarilly in Egypt, since the 1920's. But it was too weak to take on the right backed by the US and UK, or socialists, backed by the USSR. But when both groups failed to imporve things, their chance came.



                        Just to repeat GePap
                        Has Islam been hijacked? How does one Hijack a religion of 1 billion peolple? I find the question silly. 99.9% of Muslims have never been part fo a violent Islamist organization. 1/10% is of course still 1 million people, but that hardly tells you about the life of the 999,999 Million others.
                        Socrates: "Good is That at which all things aim, If one knows what the good is, one will always do what is good." Brian: "Romanes eunt domus"
                        GW 2013: "and juistin bieber is gay with me and we have 10 kids we live in u.s.a in the white house with obama"

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          The one important question we need to ask us is the following:

                          -Is Islam the decisive variable (so to speak) to understand the happenings of the world?

                          From my point of view the answer is obvious; no! Different religions and moral beliefs is not the fundamental cause behind history and politics. For me many other issues are as important or more important to understand the development and history on a local and global level.

                          Another vital issue in debates like this and others is how many people view the world and others. It helps us understand why islam is in the position it it today in the view of at least the western world. For these people islam has 1400 years of history that proofs that it's a violent element i the world. This while incitents in the history of for example christianity is isolated incidents (like for example Ned claims) that says nothing or little about christianity itself. This is in my opinion a common but faulty way of looking at the world. It exists on a much smaller scale. For example if a arabic man beats his wife there's a problem with his religion or culture while if a white, native, christian man beats his wife it's a individual problem not at all related to his religion or culture (it's possible his non-abusive arabic neighbour things so though). In fact this is almost a universal behavior, people have been talking down and generalized about the other people in the village down the road/river since the dawn of mankind.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            I wish people would simply stop defending those who act violently in the name of Islam by pointing out that there are some random examples of the same in Christianity. Clearly, these acts are condemned by all Christian church leaders.
                            you have to understand that christianity is older than islam, and that the (western) christian world is more developed than the muslim world.

                            If you strictly look at the basis for both religions, the Bible and the Koran, you'll find similar calls for violence.

                            The problem is people. Christians in the past have done horrendous things, in a time the Muslims were far more moderate. (inquisition, crusades, etc). Only (relatively) recently, the two switched sides.

                            But in basis, neither religion can claim the moral high ground. The Islam isn't more messed up than Christianity, just the people (for various reasons).
                            Quod Me Nutrit Me Destruit

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Question: If the vast majority of Muslims agree with OBL - at least to the extent of his complaints, what does this mean? Even many in this forum seem to agree with OBL on some of them. Has the religion been hijacked or does OBL simply represent the Muslim world view?

                              Of course, the leaders of the Muslim world who do not install a theocracy are against OBL because he has declared them too to be the enemy.
                              http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Ít is a lie that 99,9% of the (peaceful) Muslims are just hijacked by 0,1% of freaks.
                                Right, probably most wouldn't go as far as bombing Bali, New York etc. but that doesn't mean that Islam is somehow peaceful. Look at the UN human rights papers - most of which have not been signed by islamic states. Morocco, which isn't a fundamentalist state, nor a "secular state" (which is a concept contrary to strict muslim belief, whether liberal or freaky) considers the change of religion to be a problem for state security - apostasy is high treason!!!!!! Moreover, only Christians and Jews are legally accepted as religious groups and have any rights as such. In Turkey, believers consider the secular state to be anti-islamic - and that's not a recent development.

                                Granted, the majority muslims aren't violent nor a threat, but the reason of them not being intolerant towards others - or generally peaceful - is rarely their islamic faith. If there is a rise of secular states (which is quite the reverse, look at Tunesia) it's not because secular states are so compatible with Islam, but because people don't care so much about following every dot of the Quran and the sunna.

                                That, again, doesn't mean that a muslim has to be violent in order to be a good muslim or fight the infidels, that's stupid and most people can't be fanaticized to do so, when there's no direct threat (and there surely are possibilities to interpret the Quran in a manner that violence may only be used as defense [note: how one can define a defensive war look at Dubbya's rhetorics...]).

                                In times with bad situations, when feeling oppressed, the Islam offers tons of reasons for fanatizing believers, and that's also what Muhammad often tried to do with his words. Many of those words were spoken to his warriors, before they went to battle.

                                I can't hear it anymore that Islam is hijacked, nor any comparisons with christianity in order to "relativate" the brutality of Islam. That's a similar question like: "Who's worse: Hitler or Stalin?" That doesn't lead anywhere.

                                Fact is that ALL major interpretations of Islam (there's basically 4 schools of sunnitic law [Hanafites, Malikites, Shafiites and Hanbalites] and the Shiites] have in one way or the other interpreted the Islam in a way that allows killing of non-believers, especially apostates, severe discrimination of those who are being "tolerated" before court and social stigmatization of them etc., limitation of their cult. Many even harmless reasons could lead to execution or exiliation of nonbelievers in the Sharia (which is not only the source of law of fundamentlists, but also the basis of the "Cairo Declaration of Islamic Human Rights, which doesn't deserve the name IMHO) - there's even tons of such evidence for the "tolerant" spanish and ottoman period.
                                When there were times of more liberties and good coexistance it was generally the kadis and imams etc. who opposed this lax politics.

                                How can people say that the common interpretation of Islam by the vast majority of Islamic thinkers is "perverting" Islam? Surely other interpretations can be thought of, but that doesn't mean that those "violent" or intolerant views which are in the majority are not islamic...
                                "The world is too small in Vorarlberg". Austrian ex-vice-chancellor Hubert Gorbach in a letter to Alistar [sic] Darling, looking for a job...
                                "Let me break this down for you, fresh from algebra II. A 95% chance to win 5 times means a (95*5) chance to win = 475% chance to win." Wiglaf, Court jester or hayseed, you judge.

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