Peaceful Islam?

[Kropotkin]

*Where do you get the idea that most in the muslim world agrees with OBL? Is that what CNN says these days?

*Have you ever opened the Koran irl at all? I don't have it but I've opened it on a number of occuations and I can't really say that there's nothing but violence. Not compared to the bible anyway.

[Dom Pedro II]

The Quran may have some aggressive language, but it also has many strong peaceful points...

For example, the Quran declares all men to be created equal, and thats why on the haj to Mecca, they must don the same white robes in the baths to make no distinction between a prince and pauper.

The Quran also gives women the right to own property.

And Muhammed's wife was never forced to where the hijab and in fact she never wore it at all! That was a custom imposed by the caliphs long after Muhammed was gone. In fact, the caliphs by their very existence violated the idea of all men being equal. The real trouble with Islam is not the original writing itself but rather the corruption and misinterpretation... FUNDAMENTALIST is not the correct word for groups like al Quaeda and the Taliban because they do not accept the Quran as a whole but rather only that which is most convenient to their cause. EXTREMIST is therefore a more appropriate word.

A fundamentalist, in fact, would be better for the simple fact that they would take the written word (all of it) over the established traditions that do not pre-date the Quran.

In fact,
A few other points though:

1. With regards to Kashmir, how naive is it to think that the Hindu Indians are not doing similar actions there as well? Its well-documented that the Indians there aren't exactly spreading the love either.

2. There is little difference between Muslim extremist terrorism and state-sponsored terrorism brought to you by nations like Israel and the United States if one uses the definition that the Bush administration has been using. Bush's war is one such example... afterall, they defined terrorism as an act meant to coerce, and I would say that threatening to bomb the hell out of one's country if they don't agree to his demands is an act of coercion.

3. I wouldn't exactly say that the high-profile members of the Christian right here in the USA have exactly been preaching the ideas of truth and love lately with regards to their fellow men. Personally, I think it'd be pretty hard to assemble another such group of sleaze.

4. Does not the Bible and Old Testament have passages that might not seem somewhat... harsh or violent? Moses killed all of the Egyptian first-born sons. God obliterated Soddom and Gamora. He flooded the entire planet killing not only all of its inhabitants but all of its animal and landed plant life with the exception of whatever was on the Ark. Now, any Christian might be quick to say "but God was killing the evil people" or "Moses was trying to free his people from tyranny"... and thats true, but isn't that exactly what the Quran is saying? Aren't the same people that the Jewish and Christian Gods were so willing to smite the same ones that Allah is as well? Sure, again a Christian might say that no the language is directed at Christians and Jews but is that because that's what it says, or because these are the people who have been targetted by the Muslim extremists?

Frankly, the western powers had no trouble with the infidels being the Soviets when they invaded Afghanistan. And the CIA had no problem with language of the Quran when the bribed an Afghan shaikh to declare a holy war against the Soviets... the same holy war that has been carried over to include us. But I'll digress from politics... thats another debate.

But to address the topical problem: Only a Martin Luther of the Islamic world who gets back to the written word and away from the religious heirarchy can really save Islam and the Middle East now from total degradation.

[Wernazuma III]

There are passages in the Quran who allow to interpret respect towards the "religions of the book". Especially the Christians have some nice verses.

Quran 5, 48 says that while pagans and Jews are Islam's worst enemies, the "Nazarenes" are most friendly to them. This is important because Q 5 is one of the last chapters - and the latter chapters "beat" contradictory previous passages.

There's some verses in Quran that when it comes to Christians and Jews "God is enough as a judge" (Q 2, 137) and that muslims are only allowed to use words not force (Q 3, 319)

Yet, Quran 9, 29ff. (quoted above) clearly tells what to do with stubborn Christians and Jews...

It's a stupid problem: Muhammad thought that the "Monotheists" who worship Allah would unite against the pagans. He thought that Jews and Christians would continue to be Jews and Christians but accept him as prophet and ignoring those parts in their holy scriptures which contradict the Quran (you can be Muslim AND Christian, i.e. follower of the prophet Jesus, but you may not regard him as son of God, nor believe in trinity...)


Deducting from Q 9, 29 and the tradition (Muh.'s biography) the islamic law has constructed a system of treaties for possible coexistence with the ahl al-kitab (people of the books): The Dimma, which means paying a special tax (the djizya) and contains very discriminating parts. Being Jew or Christian is not a "human right" in Islam, it can rather be a hereditary right as long as they ysupport the dominance and expansion of Islam by accepting the discriminating treaty (which forbids building of new churches, orders stigmatized clothing among others) and "don't bother muslims". Before muslim courts, the testimony of Dhimmi's doesn't count against muslims, so you can guess three times what happens if your muslim neighbor didn't like you...

[Saint Marcus]

It is impossible to reconcile this interpretation of the Koran with the above quote, that is, unless Pagan (as in slay the Pagan) simply means the old Roman religion in the quoted passage. Does anyone have the passages in the Koran that actually tells the Moslem to respect Christianity and Judaism and to live in peace with it?

Christians and Jews aren't considered pagans in Muslim teachings. Pagans are everyone but Christians, Jews and Muslims.

[gsmoove23]

Yeah, my God, anyone who starts saying good things about Sharon goes straight to the loony bin. Well, not really, but in a perfect world...

You know, you can find a lot of references to violence against christians and jews in the Koran. Does anyone stop to consider that this might have something to do with the fact that Islam came after both religions? The Bible has some harsh words for Jews who do not believe in Christ, but stops short of any ugly violence because... early christians were jews. Its that simple. It took the Catholic church, many years later, to indoctrinate its followers with antisemitism. Of course, the Jewish texts or the Old Testament don't even mention violence against Islam or Christianity. :hmm:

However, both Christianity and Judaism in their texts are not too forgiving to those who do not accept their teachings. Its a question of modern politics and not necessarily religion accept when its used as a way to divide people.

If Islam is at risk of being hijacked by extremism as I admit may be true, the question should be how do we assist moderate and enlightened muslims in retaking their religion. Simply righting off Islam as a violent religion does more hurt then anything and besides it is extremely hipocritical(sp?). Fostering and supporting enlightened religion and listening and acting on very real complaints which adherents to these moderate religions might have is a far better way to display to the Islamic world that they do have a voice and violence and the hardline isn't necessary.

[Sava]

Ned: Don't get me wrong. I'm not about to ban religion. I think if people want to believe in something, they should have every right to; no matter how stupid it sounds. I'm tolerant of anyone's peaceful religious beliefs. But tolerant is simply that... I tolerate it. I don't approve of it. What I don't tolerate is the missionary style preaching. The whole evangelical attitude of Christians peddling their religion.

Many Pro-Life wackos murder abortion doctors in the name of Christianity, but I don't blame all of Christianity for the wrong-doings of a few idiots.

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by Dom Pedro II
The Quran may have some aggressive language, but it also has many strong peaceful points...

Some? It's full of this kind of talking!

For example, the Quran declares all men to be created equal, and thats why on the haj to Mecca, they must don the same white robes in the baths to make no distinction between a prince and pauper.

That's right, so does Christianity and everyone who isn't racist. Their criterium is not race but faith, as with most religions. Fact is that every faith other than Islam is sinful and considered to be a crime against God (except maybe for Christians and Jews who "act in accordance with God's laws" (i.e. the islamic ones)

The Quran also gives women the right to own property.

In fact, the caliphs by their very existence violated the idea of all men being equal.

Not at all. There's nothing in the Quran against hierarchy and the umma (Islamic community) is supposed to have a caliph as a head (don't ask me for the quranic foundation, but that's the common opinion of Orientalists in this matter)

The real trouble with Islam is not the original writing itself but rather the corruption and misinterpretation... FUNDAMENTALIST is not the correct word for groups like al Quaeda and the Taliban because they do not accept the Quran as a whole but rather only that which is most convenient to their cause. EXTREMIST is therefore a more appropriate word.

It's a myth that the "poor peaceful Islam" is abused by extremists. Granted, the "fundamentalist" viewpoint is not the only possible "authentic" interpretation of the Quran, there can be much more liberal authentic opinions in accordance with the Islam. But the fact remains that the Quran is the source of fundamentalist viewpoints and provides the aggressive rhetorics and that's not "perverting" it - it is not really astounding as Muhammad lived in the 7th century AD, the major problem is that by making his "visions" and actions "divine will" he conserved this medieval ethics for eternity!

4. Does not the Bible and Old Testament have passages that might not seem somewhat... harsh or violent? Moses killed all of the Egyptian first-born sons. God obliterated Soddom and Gamora. He flooded the entire planet killing not only all of its inhabitants but all of its animal and landed plant life with the exception of whatever was on the Ark. Now, any Christian might be quick to say "but God was killing the evil people" or "Moses was trying to free his people from tyranny"... and thats true, but isn't that exactly what the Quran is saying? Aren't the same people that the Jewish and Christian Gods were so willing to smite the same ones that Allah is as well? Sure, again a Christian might say that no the language is directed at Christians and Jews but is that because that's what it says, or because these are the people who have been targetted by the Muslim extremists?

I always had problems with those parts in the bible (actually the whole book, but these especially...)

But to address the topical problem: Only a Martin Luther of the Islamic world who gets back to the written word and away from the religious heirarchy can really save Islam and the Middle East now from total degradation.

Martin Luther was not so much more peacefuil than the Catholicism, the other reformator Calvin established a highly intolerant Theocracy in Switzerland...

What they need is a development similar to our enlightenment, but it has to be carried by society as a whole, which doesn't seem to happen soon, quite the reverse.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Viking Berserk
anti-semitism??? they are semittes...

anyway, the israelis are worse than the arabs, end of story.

The same useless semantic argument resaid a million times still amounts to a useless semantic argument. In the English language Anti-Semitism=Anti-Jewish; that's just the definition of this word in English.

Sure it would be nice if the gramatic rules of a language were consistent with our scientific definitions but they aren't so we just have to live with it. BTW the Isrealis try not to kill innocent people while most Arab hate groups have the single minded goal of killing innocent people. That makes the Jews infinitely superior to your average Arab militant.

[Saint Marcus]

That makes the Jews infinitely superior to your average Arab militant.

what about some of the Israeli settlers, who kill palestinian civilians (on purpose)?

and what about the massacre in the refugee camp, for which Sharon was responsable when he was minister of defense?

[Imran Siddiqui]

There's nothing in the Quran against hierarchy

Actually Islam is very anti-hierarchy. That is why there is no Pope-like Imam. No Imam has to answer to another. They are seperate. So there is no elaborate setup like the Catholic Church. That, by itself, indicates a lack of hierarchy.

[Ned]

Imran, the Catholic Church actually had a number of co-equal apostolic sees scattered about the Empire and Persia. The Roman bishop always claimed to be first among equals, but at best, the other bishops only gave him the right to approve or disapprove cannons from ecumenical councils. But then in 445, the Western emperor appointed the bishop of Rome to be pontifex maximus (today supreme pontiff) with legal jurisdiction over all bishops of the Western empire. Naturally, the patriarch of Constantinople never agreed that the pope had jurisdiction over him.

This feud continues 'til this day.

To this, we add the splitup of the Western Church during the protestant reformation.

Christianity is fairly fragmented. The popes have been trying to put things back together for a thousand years, but to no avail.

[Ned]

I wish people would simply stop defending those who act violently in the name of Islam by pointing out that there are some random examples of the same in Christianity. Clearly, these acts are condemned by all Christian church leaders.

The same is not true though with Islamic leaders who seem to praise violence by calling suicide bombers and pilots martyrs.

[Imran Siddiqui]

The Catholic Church TODAY is very elaborate. You have priests, bishops, archbishops, pope. Very hierarchical.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
The Catholic Church TODAY is very elaborate. You have priests, bishops, archbishops, pope. Very hierarchical.

The structure follows the Empire's structure post-Diocletian. A bishop is the head of the a church of a city. An archbishop is the head of the church of a large metropolis and is also know as a metropolitan. Cardinals are the personal staff of the pope. The pope is the head of the Western Roman Empire Catholic Church per the 445 appointment - although they are wont to drop "Western" and "Empire."

[The Vagabond]

IMHO what is going on has little to do with Islam as such. Islam has simply become a convenient banner for those unsatisfied with the unjust world order, and a vent for the energy of "new nations".