Peaceful Islam?

[Al'Kimiya]

Originally posted by Kropotkin
maybe you're a nut as well but I'm not taking statements from people that express themselves in this way seriously. Why not look up a site like it about the jews or the commies while you're at it?

Sites about jews or commies usually advocate violence against these people. This page merely quotes islamic texts and relates them to islamic actions. It advocates enlightenment, not violence. If you consider it a waste of time, fine. I'm a nut then

[Kropotkin]

You don't have to be violent to be a nut. I guess there's no real reason for futher discussions. The site lacks contextual reasoning and perspecitives. While I do agree that all religions are threats to enligtenment (or rather getting some contact with reaility) I see no point with the dicotomy that the above quote shows. There's a total lack of understanding between ideology and real politik. In this aspect the site shows the same lack of awareness as most forms of orthodoxy and so called fundamentalism.

The end.

[Al'Kimiya]

1400+ years of expansion by bloodshed is not context or perspective enough? No matter how his "mission" is defined, he sure has some valid points on the politics of Islam and that is what matters. Moslems are victims of Islam.

[Kropotkin]

Humans are victims of humanity.

[Al'Kimiya]

Valid point. However, that humanity is evil is more political correct so it's not that interesting.

[Kropotkin]

This is not about being pc, a by now pointless term without much substance. It's much more about how to interpet what's going on the world.

If one would like to think of conflicts as the result of different but more or less literal interpetations of a couple of books and a number of different ideas. fine. Hegel might applaud you but besides that different cultures and religions do mean a lot for the different ways of life on this planet I can't agree with this notion.

For me conflicts are first and foremost the result of a struggle for power and control over resources. What a book says has little to do with the real reasons behind the actions in a larger perspective. There's people that do think like that but the revolution eats its children, they are of little real significance. It's a hen and egg-problem that seems to confuse many. Ideas don't run the world.

[Cagliostro]

Mmmh - I found an interesting test about the question "whose god is more vicious" lately (yeahyeah - I know - Allah and christian god are the same, but anyway... - it's not completely serious, but most is fact based): http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1...usgodquiz.html

[Wernazuma III]

Although I understand the writings of the Quran as inherently violent, I have to agree with Kropotkin that the given link is nothing but hate-propaganda with a fundamentalist christian backgroud.

Islam needs a complete overhaul of interpretation to get closer to an "enlightened" religion which goes with our pluralistic world, but it's possible, as some recent philosophers show. The society though is very apart from this though. Looking on the main schools of Quran-exegesis, I see little hope of such a change happening soon.
Islam has a huge handicap when it comes to human rights, especially religious freedom. Yet, many "typical" muslims (I mean Muslims who consider themselves to be believers) aren't of this zealous brand (which surely is the orthodoxy) but much more open to a pluralistic society (many believing muslims in Iran despise the Mullah-regime and would like to change it for a more "western oriented" regime).
Islam is so extremely diverse that such a flat and poor subsumation "Islam itself is a danger" and "we have to fight Islam itself" can't be a serious answer to the problem unless one is a fundamentalist freak.

[Sava]

All Islam isn't evil. The problem with Islam and other religions is that it preaches submission to God and discourages independent and rational thought. Because if those people were thinking rationally, they wouldn't be worshipping something that isn't there.

Islam in general... IMO, bad... but not because I believe all of its members are fanatics. But because it teaches submission and conformity. Christianity is just as bad if not worse.

[Ned]

I just like to quote from one of the articles in the Islam and terrorism link to contrast it with the quote from the earlier quote from the Koran:

"The Koran tells us of the oneness of God. We worship one God and not several gods. According to the Koran we worship the God of Abraham, the God of Moses and the God of Jesus. The difference comes in that we refer to God as Allah. Otherwise, we worship the same God you do," Eifessl told the mostly Christian group.

El-Afandi explained that Muslims are taught to accept other faiths and to strive for peace and contentment in the world.

"According to Koranic context, followers of Christianity and Judaism should be treated with extreme tolerance and respect. The Koran teaches that Muslims are to bend over backwards and help those people practice their religion and live in peace with those people," El-Afandi said.

It is impossible to reconcile this interpretation of the Koran with the above quote, that is, unless Pagan (as in slay the Pagan) simply means the old Roman religion in the quoted passage. Does anyone have the passages in the Koran that actually tells the Moslem to respect Christianity and Judaism and to live in peace with it?

I will begin to believe that Islam is peaceful when I hear their religious leaders begin to say good things about Ariel Sharon and to condemn OBL and Arafat.

[Sava]

Muslim leaders in the Chicago area have done that, repeatedly... but Americans don't listen, nor do they care.

[Heresson]

It's Christian Russia that attacks Muslim Tchechenia.

[C0ckney]

ned, christians and jews are treated as 'people of the book' which basically means that they should be treated with respect. 'pagan' in the context used means pretty much anyone other than muslims, christians and jews.

and how could anyone, muslim or otherwise have anything good to say about sharon

[Ned]

Originally posted by Sava
All Islam isn't evil. The problem with Islam and other religions is that it preaches submission to God and discourages independent and rational thought. Because if those people were thinking rationally, they wouldn't be worshipping something that isn't there.

Islam in general... IMO, bad... but not because I believe all of its members are fanatics. But because it teaches submission and conformity. Christianity is just as bad if not worse.

Yes, but Sava, in the United States, we live and let live guided by the First Amendment. Regardless of whether you believe one religion or all religions are bad, I would hope you would accept the principle that they have a right to exercise their religion, in peace, and without discrimination.

The problem we have is that al Qaida attacked us in the name of Islam. Their leader has justified all his action on the Koran. From all observation, most in the Muslim world agree with much if not everything OBL says: that we must submit to Allah or be destroyed because we are Christian, because we support the Jews of Israel, because we are decadant and because we charge interest on loans (usury).

Now we must focus on understanding Islam. If it is a violent religion, what are we supposed to do about it? If it is a peaceful religion, how can we get ride of the fundamentalists.

As of this point in time, I have seen nothing in the Koran that is peaceful. The jury is still out with me on whether Islam is a religion of peace.

[Saint Marcus]

Saint Marcus: I'm currently working on a paper on this issue and if you come to take a look into the Quran, you'll find an extremely aggressive language there, full of "don't trust the infidels", "fight them to death if they turn their back onto you", "fight them all, as they all fight you etc.", "they're cursed and use to kill prophets", "God may kill them" etc.

read your bible. you'll find a lot of similar statements. Jesus may have preached love and forgiveness, but his predecesors and followers certainly haven't!