The shame nations of WWII.

[Serb]

I don’t have any desire to start another “the reasons of Winter war” thread. I’m going to
...and btw, 1939 and 1941 is a bit different years and wars.

[Jaakko]

Oh sure 41 was a tad different, but you reap what you sow. I'm really not going to feel ashamed that my nation decided to take advantage of the situation to ensure its continued survival.
Why do you think Finland left both Leningrad and the Murmansk railway alone, even to the point of having to fight against troops equipped with Lend-Lease materiel?

[tinyp3nis]

Serb, honestly, do you know the difference of the words a co-belligerent and an ally? This was a rhethorical question.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Obviously, Russia was never in a position of weakness where both sides wanted to take you out. Its hard to know how difficult it is to survive a war where everyone is against you when your own country wasnt in such a position.

[axi]

Wasn't Finland granted independence by the Soviets after 1917. Didn't the Finnish actually take part in the October Revolution? Didn't the Finnish troops take the side of the Bolsheviks, along with many other military units? Do you doubt that, had the October Revolution not happened, Finland might still be part of the Russian empire?

I feel that the most shameful nations are those who jumped into the war in 1945, just before it ended, just in time to be on the winning side. Turkey comes to mind as the most important of such nations. The whole South American continent too.

[Gangerolf]

Originally posted by Ned


This raises a question: Where was Denmark diplomatically prior to WWII? If it were in the anti-German alliance that Britain and France put together in 1939, they were asking for it.

they tried to stay neutral, just like norway. but the germans had other intentions...

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Chris 62
By the war's end the French would have a million men under arms, the French resistance was renamed the FFI (French forces of the Interior) and were considered part of the Army.
France had enough forces to form a genuine Army (Southern sector of Alsace/Lorraine, near Mulhouse), French forces were the first to cross the Rhine, and the first into Germany.

By 1945 they had two armies in the field. The First, which you describe above, under Gen Lattre de Tassigny, in the 7th army group, and the 2nd which was investing and sieging the bypassed frotified ports on the Atlantic coast of France. The Frech did do a amazing job of rapidaly incorperating tens of thousands of FFI personnel into regular formations in 44 & 45. (An the USA did an amzing job of equiping them.)

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by David Floyd


Hmmm. Do you have a source for that claim? I could be wrong, but it seems rather doubtful (when applied to France, the others are undoubtedly correct).

I used Keegan's "Dirty Little Secrets of World War II" as a source.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
A number of former allied countries actually supplied more troops for the axis cause than for the allies. Included among these were France, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, and Greece.

There may have been a time window (part of 41 & 42) when there were more French (a few divisions at most, in Russia and elswhere IIRC) severing with the axis than with the Allies, but this was much smaller than their deployments earlier (40) and later (43, 44, & 45) with the allies.

[Stefu]

Wasn't Finland granted independence by the Soviets after 1917.

Yes.

Didn't the Finnish actually take part in the October Revolution?

No.

Didn't the Finnish troops take the side of the Bolsheviks, along with many other military units?

No.

Do you doubt that, had the October Revolution not happened, Finland might still be part of the Russian empire?

What's it matter? Lenin offered Finland independence in hopes that the proletariat revolution would sweep Finland, too (like it tried to in 1918.) If the Red revolution had worked, Finland would have became part of the Soviet Union - de facto or de jure.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola

There may have been a time window (part of 41 & 42) when there were more French (a few divisions at most, in Russia and elswhere IIRC) severing with the axis than with the Allies, but this was much smaller than their deployments earlier (40) and later (43, 44, & 45) with the allies.

I do think he included volunteers for local militia and military construction formations.

[Hurricane]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
I do think he included volunteers for local militia and military construction formations.

The Germans (naturally) put POW's to use for construction duties, in factories and as help for farmers. But I can hardly see how those hundred of thousand POWs could be compared with regular army troops.

[Guardian]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III

Anyhow, it would be interesting how large and extensive Norwegian resistance against the Nazis was.

I don't have any exact figures, but here's a pretty rough summary:

On the morning of April 9th, 1940, the German forces bound for Oslo were delayed by the sinking of the cruiser Blücher by the coastal fortress at Oscarsborg. Consequently, the German plan to capture our king and government failed, and they all escaped before the Germans forces took control of Oslo. Before leaving, the government received an ultimatum from the German ambassador demanding unconditional surrender and acceptance of German occupation. They refused, and when the ambassador told them that this would lead to war, the Norwegian prime minister calmly answered that "The war is already underway."

The legally elected government of Norway then proceeded to issue a general mobilization order before fleeing the capital, along with the entire royal family. They made their way north and eventually escaped to London, from where they continued serving as a government in excile for the duration of the war.

Meanwhile, Vidkun Quisling & Co formed a nazi government backed by the Germans. They supposedly ran the country during the occupation, but most people considered them a bunch of traitors and never recognized them as a legitimate government.

The mobilization ordered by the exciled government was "too little, too late", of course. Our armed forces were ill-prepared, and they were really no match for the well-equipped, highly professional and determined forces of the enemy. Nevertheless, within the first few hours of the mobilization, thousands of men reported in to fight the invaders. The army, unfortunately, didn't even have enough rifles for all of them, and most units didn't last long. They were either lost in battle or surrendered in the face of overwhelming enemy strength. However, small pockets of resistance continued to bother the enemy for weeks, and the Germans took some losses in ambushes and other hit-and-run style actions by the outclassed Norwegians. The Norwegian army continued to fight against overwhelming odds for about two months, finally surrendering after the king and government had safely left the country in the beginning of June. A "peace treaty" was signed in Trondheim on June 10th and the armed forces still remaining in Norway were completely demobilized. From that point on, the resistance went underground...

As others have already mentioned, there were several groups of guerillas and saboteurs operating inside Norway. Also, many Norwegians left the country to join the allied armies abroad, in spite of German threats to shoot anyone attempting to do so.

Like I said, Quisling & Co were never a legitimate government of this country. Some people collaborated, yes, but all of them were traitors, and many were tried as such after the occupation ended in 1945.

Most people opposed the occupation any way they could - if only by not collaborating. My grandfather and his brothers worked at their father's farm during the day and did various illegal work during the night. They didn't fight in many great battles, but they helped smuggle people into and out of the country, get supplies to the people up in the mountains, gather information, etc. Their father was pissed at them for being slow and lazy in the mornings. It wasn't until after the war that he found out why...

[Viking Berserk]

Vidkun got executed at the end of the war too

The last stand was at Narvik, i'll try figure out when they surrendered (might be 10th june).

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Hurricane


The Germans (naturally) put POW's to use for construction duties, in factories and as help for farmers. But I can hardly see how those hundred of thousand POWs could be compared with regular army troops.

They also raised voluntary units, especially from France. Since the Vichy regime ordered the opposition of allied landings in Africa during Operation Torch then the Vichy forces were also considered as Axis military.