DanS: Hu is now the man

[Boris Godunov]

1.2 million is the number of Tibetans, not all Chinese.

[chequita guevara]

How many of those Tibetan exiles aren't monks or nuns? Frankly, I give them as much credence as I give the claims of the Papacy to the Papal States.

And while you may have been responding to a specific point about the Americas, I was pointing out that you both were ignoring European (and American) genocides up to the present.

While I do believe that Tibet should be free, if they chose to be free, I simply don't trust the opinion of the Free Tibet movement, which is nothing more than the voice of the former slave masters of Tibet.

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by Winston
No LM, what I'm saying is you can't compare genocides and other atrocities committed 400 years ago, when they were more or less the order of the day, with what is happening to oppressed ethnic minorities in this day and age - where the consensus is (or should be) that governments have to observe human rights as the first condition of administration.

That's true. But often separatists are often power hungry people who would "rather be the first in my village than be the second in Paris". Nowadays, they are very good at using terms such as "human rights" and "self determination". Also, they are very good at catering to the taste of the Western public.

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia




The result is that China is currently running a weird hybrid of Free Market *** Planned economics, while still remaining much of a Police State.

(This translates roughly to +2 Support +2 Econ +2 Growth +2 Industry -4 Efficiency -2 Police -2 Planet and an outlay of 195 energy credits over around four years or so.)

Would you say they are running Wealth, Knowledge, or Power? I'd say Wealth, myself, though I can see good arguments for the other two...

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Winston
And wrt. "China not commiting genocide in Tibet", well that's your heavily tainted interpretation. Tibetan exiles have a slightly different perception, I assure you.

But then, again they aren't fundamentalist in their outlook on the world like you, they're just desperately trying to report on the continuing atrocitites in their home country.

Atrocities you say? Have you any comprehension of what treatments the average Tibetans had when the Dalai Lama was the absolute ruler?

This group of people are mostly former ruling elites - why do they care about atrocities when they used to kill people for fun?

It's not they don't have an axe to grind, either.

[Winston]

That post seemed a bit desperate to me, UR.

I've yet to hear of Buddhist monks killing people for fun...

And the majority of exiled Tibetans aren't part of any former ruling class to my knowledge. Even if they were, I wouldn't disregard their persistant reports of human rights violations by the Chinese. But it seems you already have.

[chequita guevara]

As opposed to be willing to believe any evil said of a Communist government? If someone told you Stalin ate babies you'd believe it.

[ranskaldan]

Tibet under the Dalai Lama wasn't ruled by - monks. It was ruled by landowners and nobles.

Also, most of the people who fled for India did so during the 60's, which was also the time when Chinese were swimming to Hong Kong. Of course they would have plenty of horror stories. My Chinese family members have horror stories to tell.

Today's Tibet isn't particularly more "hellish" than the rest of China. And China is improving at a phenomenal rate.

[Winston]

Stalin didn't have to eat babies to earn the reputation he has outside your one-eyed cult, che.

[chequita guevara]

I know in more detail what Stalin did than you, Winston. The difference is I'm not so gullable to believe every horrible thing laid at his feet. If the rumors were true, the USSR simply could not have defeated the Nazis. A country which killed off 1/3rd of its own population simply wouldn't have the ability to defeat the most powerful, best trained, best equipped army in the world. Logic dictates that the murder of 60 million people must therefore, be false.

Just because I am on the same side of the baricades as the Maoists doesn't mean I agree with them on everything. Nor does it mean I approve of everything they did. While the Chinese Revolution isn't my specialty, I am aware of quite a number of horrifying things that they did. For example, during the Cultural Revolution, some of the students actually engged in canibalism, eating parts of those they denounced.

Maoists are not nice people. The Tibetan rulers were even worse. Free Tibet isn't about a nice happy democracy, it's about the return of kings and feudal priveledge and slavery. When the choice is between brutal Maoists and evil nobles, I'll take the Maoists, even though they wouldn't hesitate to kill me for my crime of being a Trotskyist.

Maybe one of these days you'll learn how to understand things.

[Winston]

I know a good deal about the Soviet Union, thank you. I've read tons of studies, articles and first hand personal accounts on it over the years.

You're the gullible one for holding the views you do, and for conveniently ignoring the parts of information that don't fit into your degenerated world view.

[chequita guevara]

Ooh, democracy is degenerate. Human rights are degenerate. Making sure everyone has their basic needs met is degenerate. Well if that's degenerate, I don't want to be moral.

[Winston]

Yes, socialism has a GREAT record of democracy, human rights and covering people's basic needs.

*Winston packs infra-red binoculars and goes spotting for airborne pigs*

[ranskaldan]

China is no longer Stalinist. So the argument the two of you are having is somewhat irrelevant.

[chequita guevara]

Leave us to our personal fight!