Russian 'we' still crushes individual citizens

[Bereta_Eder]

ABout the moscoe theater and from what I gather about Russians (Serb feel free to correct me )

there was going to be a mayehm.

The terrorists would blow the whole thing up and we would be counting the dead by the hundrends, 500 hundernd minimum.

If this succeded there would be celebrations in chechnya and others would be encouraged to do the same.

by eliminating the terrorists and not letting them carry out their plan the russians actually saved future lives by demonstarting (with the human cost of course... a tragedy that was necessairy because it was unavoidable) that no matter what it takes terrorists will NOT have their way.

in greece there was 2 hijacjkings off busses with albanians.

the 1st ended badly

the 2nd ended with the albanian being shot dead directly.

there was never another incident like that.


sometimes you have to take decisive action nomatter the cost and think about the future also IMO.

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by Stefu
It's troll! It's troll! It's big and heavy and brown!
It's troll! It's troll! It's antics will cause you to frown!
Everyone hates the troll!
But they still answer it's call!
C'mon and reply to troll!
Everyone hates the troll!

(Really, people, why did we abandon the troll song and have those silly ratings? I mean, ever since Fez got his hand on those and started giving them to every liberal thread they've kinda lost their meaning.)

0.1/10 ratings (or lower) are really annoying. They are also the only ratings people give. Therefore ratings are annoying.

A syllogism (sp?) by Jaguar Warrior.

[muxec]

DinoDoc, do not compare modern war in Chechnja and modern terror in Moscow with WW2. Why do you always discuss countries that you do not know partculary nothing about???

[muxec]

Yes it's true people of Russia live in fear, and as said one russian politician

Õîòåëè êàê ëó÷øå, ïîëó÷èëîñü êàê âñåãäà.
(lit: Wanted as better and came off as always)

The other russian saying is

Íàñ Åá*ò, à ìû êðåï÷àåì
(Us f*ck, and we grow stronger)

But it is not country's relation, it is relation of rulers.

[Sirotnikov]

Bad patriotic russians. Good libertarian america.

In the Kursk's case, the survivors of the explosion of an unsafe experimental torpedo were left to die under the sea two years ago because foreign rescuers might have gleaned some military secrets while saving lives.

Who the heck decided that it was unsafe or experimental?

This is trolling.

And I'm sure one can find enough examples of sacrificing people's lives for state secrets in many western countries.

In the Moscow theater, hostages were knocked out by an overdose of gas intended to incapacitate their captors. Many died because officials refused to tell medical staff what gas had been used, or the antidote.

This is very inexact.

What infact happenned was bad organization. Not enough ambulances were called in time (so that not to cause suspicion).

Only several of the emergency crews got news of what anti-dote to use.

The russians miscalculated and forgot that the captives were mostly starved and dehydrated, so the gas effect was stronger on them.

True, this information might be useful to other terrorists, but its release was indispensable if lives were to be saved, there and then. Given a choice between the lives of its citizens and the protection of its interests, the Russian state once again did not hesitate.

There is no reason why the gas should have been exposed to the public.

Were members of the press going to find an antidote?


It's a petty troll.

@ DD

[Az]

Siro, I must disagree. The article points out something very correct. No proper attention is given to the human casualties. You could see it during the other terrorist attacks on Russia, like the blowing of the high-rise appartment buildings. The Russian TV even didn't go live with that ****.

[Sirotnikov]

Azazel - I disagree.

The russian TV didn't go live because they are less modernized IMO.

That, and the russian conflict handling method, which often sums up to "deny it". I agree it is often wrong, but sometimes it serves a point.

It would have been justified to keep the thing secret if they would have stormed the building.

It is very stupid if the terrorists can just turn on CNN to find out what the police are doing, and learn how to avoid it.

The russian TV is to a point state censored and controlled, which I agree is usually a bad thing, but it can help at times.



Let me add this point - to a measure, the method in which the Israeli TV breakes in with "urgent" news each time, is to a point a method of mind control. It creates a feeling of urgency and crisis, and clouds rational thinking in favour of anger and such.


It's like the difference between Maariv and Yedioth which exploit and support outcry and feelings of anger, and Haaretz which try to rationalize things (usually waaay too much).

[Az]

Siro, come on, they could break in with the news, just a news flash. It's all a matter of priorities.

There is a sence of disposability of human lives.

One should point out that any attempt to critize the brave fight of the Soviet defenders deserves reprimand.

[Lord Merciless]

There was nothing wrong the Russian approach against terrorists, but their handling of the aftermath needs quite some improvement.

[Az]

I am not talking about the Nord-Ost Fiasco, but about the apartment block bombings several years ago.

[Serb]

Re: Russian 'we' still crushes individual citizens

Originally posted by DinoDoc

Crap By Konstanty Gebert
blah...blah...blah...
crap
blah...blah...blah...

Hi Serb!

Hi Dino, here I am again. (weekend)

[Serb]

Re: Russian 'we' still crushes individual citizens

Originally posted by DinoDoc

By Konstanty Gebert

A huge, feminine statue, sword in outstretched hand, overlooks the southern Russian city of Volgograd: the symbolic Motherland, ever ready to repel foreign aggression. It commemorates the defense of the city, then known as Stalingrad, in the winter of 1942. At least a million people -- German and Romanian invaders, Soviet defenders and civilian inhabitants -- died there in one of World War II's decisive battles. A similar memorial stands in the outskirts of St. Petersburg, known as Leningrad during the war, where hundreds of thousands of civilians starved during a three-year German siege.

In both cases, Josef Stalin ordered his troops not to withdraw, and not to capitulate. This arguably contributed greatly to the German defeat. It is beyond debate that the death tolls would have been vastly lower had the cities capitulated.

In many countries an order to resist at all cost would be considered criminal folly today. In Russia, then and now, Leningrad and Stalingrad are seen as shining examples of patriotism, determination and bravery, their staggering human toll a necessary price of victory. ''The individual is nonsense, the individual is zero'' wrote revolutionary poet Vladimir Mayakovsky about Vladimir Lenin.

A bunch of zeros is still zero in Russia, including the 118 hostages who have died since last month's predawn raid by Russian commandos on Chechen rebels who held them in a Moscow theater.

A memorial surely will be built at the site. Like the Leningrad and Stalingrad ones, or the memorial to the sailors lost when the Kursk submarine sank, it will not commemorate the horrible deaths of Russians sacrificed by their state. Rather, it will glorify the state that sent them to their end.

Secrets trump lives

In the Kursk's case, the survivors of the explosion of an unsafe experimental torpedo were left to die under the sea two years ago because foreign rescuers might have gleaned some military secrets while saving lives. In the Moscow theater, hostages were knocked out by an overdose of gas intended to incapacitate their captors. Many died because officials refused to tell medical staff what gas had been used, or the antidote. True, this information might be useful to other terrorists, but its release was indispensable if lives were to be saved, there and then. Given a choice between the lives of its citizens and the protection of its interests, the Russian state once again did not hesitate.

It is the consistency over time and over regimes that makes Russian policy scary. Indeed, it reflects how far Russia remains from the notion of a democracy.

Enemies fare even worse

If Russia treats its own this way, it must be difficult for Russians to consider how their state probably treats the enemy. Yet such reflection is required if Russians are to understand what made the Moscow terrorists do what they did, and why Chechens continue to resist. Only Russian public opinion can stop this 10-year war -- but its grief now is working into the hands of Kremlin generals, who still believe, as generals will, in throwing bombs at the problem. Chechens must be terrified.

At the least, Russians need to reflect on whether they want to continue to be treated by their state as expendable. Even this will be difficult, though, for much is at stake.

In 1976, while crossing the campus of Moscow State University, I ran into a van surrounded by a police escort with sirens wailing. I later found out the van was bringing a sample of lunar soil recently brought in by a Soviet space probe.

''What's up?'' I asked a Russian passerby. He recognized me as a foreigner and suddenly seemed to grow taller, smiling at me with condescension as he said: ''Oh, nothing. We've just brought back a piece of the moon, that's what.''

We! He was an unfree man in an unfree country, his clothes shabby, his face aged before time -- but he was basking in the glory of the regime that had done all that to him. The price for that ''we'' was, of course, that he would be expendable, if ''we'' would decide that this would serve the cause.

This is why Russian masses are not out in Red Square, demonstrating against the massacre of fellow citizens at the hands of their state. As long as this ''we'' lives, many individual ''I''s -- Russian, Chechen and others -- will yet die.

Hi Serb!

And so ****ing what?
Yes, we are different SO WHAT?
This "we" lives in us since times when we were enslaved by Mongols, this "we" helped us to gain freedom, this "we" helped us to protect our motherland from bastards who wanted to conquer us. This "we' is the reason why no one was able to conquer us and no one will be untill this "we" is alive. Yes, the life of individual cost nothing in compare with life of our motherland and majority of us will sacrifice their lifes if it will be needed to save our country. This is a Russian mentality, a mentality of people who lived in extremly dangerous conditions during centuries. Try to find me another country as Russia which were attacked by enemies so frequent during its history and I bet you'll find many common with Russian in mentality of people of this country.
You Americans, never were invaded during your history, never your lands saw major destructions which war and invasion brings. If you've faced only 1/10 of misery throught Russia went, then your mentality with all those shiny "life of individual is everything" would changed to "defend your motherland untill last drop of your blood".
So who the **** are you to judge Russian mentality? A citizen of country which is 5 times younger then mine? With the same success you can lecturing your father how to make children properly. (It's a Russian common expression "ne uchi otza ebatsya". Don't take it personaly)

We'll never be like you DD, we worship to Rodina, you worship to allmighty dollar.
So what you was trying to say by this crappy article?

[Serb]

Originally posted by BeBro
Question is, if this "we" is only a soviet product, or wheather such thinking is much older in Russia...

MUCH older. In fact I believe that Russia had become first communist state only because of this "we", because of our specific mentality.

[Serb]

Re: Re: Re: Russian 'we' still crushes individual citizens

Originally posted by DinoDoc
The author works for the Gazeta Wyborcza. Go play with them if you insist on begging for a link to an opinion article.

Why I'm not surprised?
This article is typical Polish anti-Russian whine. Those guys still unhappy that their dicks were/are much shorter then Russians.
Am I right Heresson?

[Dom Pedro II]

Whoa!