Russian 'we' still crushes individual citizens

[DinoDoc]

Re: Re: Russian 'we' still crushes individual citizens

Originally posted by Tassadar5000
Link please?

The author works for the Gazeta Wyborcza. Go play with them if you insist on begging for a link to an opinion article.

[Sonic]

Originally posted by BeBro
Question is, if this "we" is only a soviet product, or wheather such thinking is much older in Russia...

Yes, such thinking is older. In Czar times it was also so as far as I know...

[Ironikinit]

It's a USA Today editorial. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...atoday/4600550

I thought it was pretty good when I read it, but not really earth shattering or anything.

[David Floyd]

Serb's not gonna like this

[Myrddin]

It deserves a SO WHAT?

Russia is different, and knows it

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Myrddin
Russia is different, and knows it

And what is being highlighted in the original article is a cost of that difference.

[Myrddin]

Russians accept that cost, but will also point out there are inherent costs in other countries too, like American gun culture

[Bereta_Eder]

The writer is just pissed that Russians still use "we" to refer to the accomplishments of their people under Soviet rule.

That's a normal thing to do and the only problem is the writer's utter repulse for the fact that Russians accept that they have a past which included great achievements and he doesn't like that past, its achievements or their identification with it and them.

Funny thing is that neither do many Russians, but they were still Russians when they send the first man in space...

[Bereta_Eder]

And that's worth remembering and that's still "we".
The same way it's "we" for Americans to send the first man on the moon. State over indivindual has nothing to do with it.

The writer needs to get a clue...

[Bereta_Eder]

/end troll.

[Jules]

So when Hitler invaded the Soviet Union in 1941, proclaiming a racial war in the East to enslave the Slavic peoples and secure Lebensraum for the master German race in Mein Kampf, the Russians were just supposed to roll over and die?

Furthermore, I find Dino's attack on Russian patriotism (their sense of "we") astonishing considering his fellow conservatives are invoking that very same sense of "we" to justify the war on terror, a possible war against Iraq, informing on our Muslim neighbors and so forth. "We have to defend the American way of life," we are told. So why don't Russians have the right to be just as patriotic as Americans; why can't their leaders invoke national pride just as ours do? Or is this just a sneaky way to attack Russia's communist past?

[David Floyd]

So when Hitler invaded the Soviet Union in 1941, proclaiming a racial war in the East to enslave the Slavic peoples and secure Lebensraum for the master German race in Mein Kampf, the Russians were just supposed to roll over and die?

No, but ordering the NKVD to murder soldiers who were forced to retreat - giving soldiers the option of charging into German machine guns or Russian ones, in many cases - was absolutely immoral and totally unjustified in any and all circumstances.

Not to mention the whole idea of conscription being immoral and unjustified in any and every situation, but the US unfortunately did that as well.

Many of the actions of the Soviet Union during WW2, though, were far, far worse than those of the US or Britain, and even on par with or worse than Nazi and Japanese atrocities (in terms of "evilness" if not in terms of scale).

[Ironikinit]

I assumed that the emphasis on the word "we" was a literary reference to a fairly famous Russian science fiction novel.

Readers would do well to keep in mind that the intended audience of the editorial isn't a Russian audience, it's obviously an American one. IMO the piece is partly intended to explain why events in the Moscow theater hostage crisis played out the way they did and also why the results of the crisis are what they are, particularly in regards to Russian public opinion about how their government handled it. Americans might well be puzzled if they are not familiar with the Russian de-emphasis on individuals and their rights.

[David Floyd]

Actually, come to think of it, the US and Britain committed some horribly evil acts as well:

US dropped the atomic bomb on civilians
US and Britain murdered civilians by carpet bombing and firebombing them
US and Britain cracked down on dissent and certain political parties

So in retrospect, no side was really any better than any other, some sides just murdered more people during the war (Nazi Germany, Japan, and the US being the top three, though I'm not sure about the order, although the Soviet Union murdered more people in its history, of course).

[Jules]

David Floyd,

I agree with much of what you said. America certainly doesn't have a glowing record during war either. That's one of the reasons I felt compelled to respond to the piece. Mainly I was questioning Dino's motives for posting the piece, and in general to defend the idea of national loyalty and pride (the sense of "we" that was disparaged so in the article). Also to point out that Russia was savagely attacked by the Nazis. The nation had to be defended, especially given Hitler's twisted designs for Eastern Europe. Obviously they didn't do a perfect job of it; as you correctly pointed out the defense of their nation was quite brutal. Nevertheless they succeeded and I believe they have the right to be proud of that achievement. I think Russia is freer today than at any time in its history. That might not have been possible had the Nazis triumphed.