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  • #121
    Originally posted by Urban Ranger
    Again, completely ignoring that fact the the court ruled in favour of Sun, and MS had to issue a new JVM.

    Huh?
    They had to offer a JVM compliant with Sun's -- they don't have to ship it with Windows.

    In fact, it DOESN'T ship with Windows XP. That's what Sun's *****ing about now...did you even read the context of my post at all?

    Java doesn't ship with Windows anymore. Now it ships with C# and the .NET CLR instead, which is remarkably like Java but not as poorly implemented.
    "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
    Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

    Comment

    • #122
      Originally posted by Asher
      And where do you think the consent decree came from, genius?
      Because they were breaking laws. You read the timeline, you even quoted from it.

      Originally posted by Asher
      I've never once said they hadn't broken any laws. In fact I believe I've mentioned several times things like how they've handled OEM licensing should have been halted long ago.
      So there is no question why MS should be on trial, then.
      (\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
      (='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
      (")_(") "Starting the fire from within."

      Comment

      • #123
        Originally posted by Asher
        Huh?
        They had to offer a JVM compliant with Sun's -- they don't have to ship it with Windows.

        In fact, it DOESN'T ship with Windows XP. That's what Sun's *****ing about now...did you even read the context of my post at all?
        Sun won the case in 1998. XP started shipping in 2001. Who won?

        Originally posted by Asher
        Java doesn't ship with Windows anymore. Now it ships with C# and the .NET CLR instead, which is remarkably like Java but not as poorly implemented.
        Very unbiased opinion, this.

        On second thought, are you saying MS's Java is poorly implemented?

        Cool.
        (\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
        (='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
        (")_(") "Starting the fire from within."

        Comment

        • #124
          Originally posted by Urban Ranger
          Because they were breaking laws. You read the timeline, you even quoted from it.
          No, because Netscape/Sun lobbied and said "ohhh they're breaking laws lookie lookie" as they slip them a few million. That's how politics works here, don't you know.

          So there is no question why MS should be on trial, then.
          Not at all. Except some of the stuff they're on trial for was outrageous, which is why the trial became a farce. Some of the legit issues got torn down because all of MS' competitors jumped on the bandwagon and obfuscated the case to the point where over half of the things being said against MS were false...which weakened the DoJ's case.
          "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
          Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

          Comment

          • #125
            Originally posted by Urban Ranger
            Sun won the case in 1998. XP started shipping in 2001. Who won?
            I can see you're STILL confused.

            I'm not talking about the 1998 case AT ALL. Do you understand?

            I'm talking about the timeline part I HIGHLIGHTED (March 2002). Did you read that? I'm talking about the part where Sun seems to think they have a God-given right to have Java shipped with Windows, when they sure as hell don't.

            Because of the 1998 case where Sun thought it'd be fun to take MS to court over it, MS' solution was to simply stop shipping Java and develop .NET's CLR. Now Sun is pissing and moaning about how Java isn't being shipped with Windows, and instead .NET is. That's what I'm talking about...please tell me you understand now.
            "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
            Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

            Comment

            • #126
              Originally posted by Asher
              No, because Netscape/Sun lobbied and said "ohhh they're breaking laws lookie lookie" as they slip them a few million. That's how politics works here, don't you know.
              Did you read the timeline? The 1995 consent decree wasn't even caused by Netscape filing a complain. MS had no Web browser back then.

              Originally posted by Asher
              Not at all. Except some of the stuff they're on trial for was outrageous, which is why the trial became a farce. Some of the legit issues got torn down because all of MS' competitors jumped on the bandwagon and obfuscated the case to the point where over half of the things being said against MS were false...which weakened the DoJ's case.
              A farce? Maybe you are better than the Court of Appeals, then.
              (\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
              (='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
              (")_(") "Starting the fire from within."

              Comment

              • #127
                Originally posted by Urban Ranger
                Did you read the timeline? The 1995 consent decree wasn't even caused by Netscape filing a complain. MS had no Web browser back then.
                Windows 95 had IE 1.0 integrated.
                Plus Netscape was complaining because they knew about MS' plans (MS talked to them).

                A farce? Maybe you are better than the Court of Appeals, then.
                Tell me what the likely consquences are for this trial...and tell me it's not a farce for all of the taxpayer's dollars and time spent on it.
                "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                Comment

                • #128
                  Originally posted by Asher
                  I can see you're STILL confused.

                  I'm not talking about the 1998 case AT ALL. Do you understand?

                  I'm talking about the timeline part I HIGHLIGHTED (March 2002). Did you read that? I'm talking about the part where Sun seems to think they have a God-given right to have Java shipped with Windows, when they sure as hell don't.
                  Oh, I don't know, they might. Why else is MS providng a JVM? What is the point of providing a JVM and not ship it? This sort of mentality just boggles the mind.
                  (\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
                  (='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
                  (")_(") "Starting the fire from within."

                  Comment

                  • #129
                    Originally posted by Urban Ranger
                    Oh, I don't know, they might. Why else is MS providng a JVM? What is the point of providing a JVM and not ship it? This sort of mentality just boggles the mind.
                    It discourages the use. The JVM is available for download because many websites still use Java.

                    But because it's not standard on Windows, it makes developing for Java a bit more complex since you need to make sure they've got the VM you require installed.

                    You don't have much up there in the reasoning department, do you.
                    "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                    Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                    Comment

                    • #130
                      Originally posted by Asher
                      Windows 95 had IE 1.0 integrated.
                      Not the versions I was using. Maybe you had some special version through the MS fanboy club.

                      Originally posted by Asher
                      Plus Netscape was complaining because they knew about MS' plans (MS talked to them).
                      You can click on a date to get a detailed story.

                      The Justice Department announced yesterday that giant Microsoft Corp. has agreed to end practices that the government said choked off competition and inflated prices in the personal computer software industry. The deal came after a contentious 4 1/2-year investigation.

                      Microsoft said it would drop allegedly anti-competitive licensing practices for its MS-DOS and Windows operating system software, which is used in 80 percent of personal computers sold today. The Justice Department contends these practices pushed computer makers to favor Microsoft's products.

                      "There's no question they had locked up the market with these practices, completely unfairly," said Anne K. Bingaman, assistant attorney general for the Justice Department's antitrust division. "That will end."

                      Bingaman predicted that consumers will have more choice and lower prices in operating systems, which control the basic functions of a personal computer.

                      Microsoft general counsel William Neukom described the agreement as a "good result" for the company. "We have always said, and continue to say, that we have not done anything wrong," he said. "We're settling because we think its time to put this investigation behind us and proceed with a full focus on our business."

                      The deal was signed late Friday after intensive final negotiations by telephone between Bingaman and Bill Gates, the 38-year-old entrepreneur who founded the company in 1975 and built the Redmond, Wash.-based company into the world's largest software company. The Justice Department was prepared to begin a court battle Friday against Microsoft if the negotiations failed, Bingaman said. The government investigation into Microsoft's business practices was started by the Federal Trade Commission in late 1989.
                      Originally posted by Asher
                      Tell me what the likely consquences are for this trial...and tell me it's not a farce for all of the taxpayer's dollars and time spent on it.
                      Tell me why this is the case.

                      In 1994, I bought a top-end PC. Windows 95 costed me 1/10 of the cost of hardware. In 2002, I bought a top-end PC. Windows XP Pro would cost me 1/2 of the cost of hardware.

                      Clearly, the MS monopoly has been hurting consumers.
                      (\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
                      (='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
                      (")_(") "Starting the fire from within."

                      Comment

                      • #131
                        Originally posted by Asher
                        It discourages the use. The JVM is available for download because many websites still use Java.

                        But because it's not standard on Windows, it makes developing for Java a bit more complex since you need to make sure they've got the VM you require installed.

                        You don't have much up there in the reasoning department, do you.
                        I must confess that I am not steeped in MS ReasoningTM.

                        If one does not need it, the presence of the JVM will not encourage use. If one needs it, the absence of the JVM just makes one annoyed.
                        (\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
                        (='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
                        (")_(") "Starting the fire from within."

                        Comment

                        • #132
                          Originally posted by Urban Ranger
                          In 1994, I bought a top-end PC. Windows 95 costed me 1/10 of the cost of hardware. In 2002, I bought a top-end PC. Windows XP Pro would cost me 1/2 of the cost of hardware.

                          Clearly, the MS monopoly has been hurting consumers.
                          In 1994 I bought a top-end PC and Windows 95 cost me nothing because it came with 3.1 and I used a Windows 95 CD that came from a friends' top-end PC he bought a few months later.
                          "Yay Apoc!!!!!!!" - bipolarbear
                          "At least there were some thoughts went into Apocalypse." - Urban Ranger
                          "Apocalype was a great game." - DrSpike
                          "In Apoc, I had one soldier who lasted through the entire game... was pretty cool. I like apoc for that reason, the soldiers are a bit more 'personal'." - General Ludd

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                          • #133
                            Originally posted by Urban Ranger
                            Not the versions I was using. Maybe you had some special version through the MS fanboy club.
                            http://www.nwnetworks.com/iehistory.htm

                            It actually came in Win95 Plus in early 1995...
                            Tell me why this is the case.

                            In 1994, I bought a top-end PC. Windows 95 costed me 1/10 of the cost of hardware. In 2002, I bought a top-end PC. Windows XP Pro would cost me 1/2 of the cost of hardware.

                            Clearly, the MS monopoly has been hurting consumers.
                            I have no idea, that's anecdotal evidence and I don't share the same experience.

                            Come back and play when you've got some numbers.
                            "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                            Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                            Comment

                            • #134
                              Originally posted by Urban Ranger
                              I must confess that I am not steeped in MS ReasoningTM.

                              If one does not need it, the presence of the JVM will not encourage use. If one needs it, the absence of the JVM just makes one annoyed.
                              Well, obviously Sun also disagrees with you because they thought it was worthy to spend millions to challenge in court.

                              That's okay, UR, we always need people like you to run our networks for us. Don't think too hard.
                              "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                              Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                              Comment

                              • #135
                                lordy, this has got to be the most exciting thread ever… arguing over what the best email addy is… gawd
                                "mono has crazy flow and can rhyme words that shouldn't, like Eminem"
                                Drake Tungsten
                                "get contacts, get a haircut, get better clothes, and lose some weight"
                                Albert Speer

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