Should East Europe countries be thankful to Soviet Union?

[Sonic]

What about city of Vilnius? Do you mean giving it to Lithuania in exchange to annexation? In the end, we've got nothing and Russia got whole country.

As for Russians being criminals in Lithuania, I've already stated the reasons - it's mostly because some of them thinks that Russia should still rule, etc.

[DanS]

"It tells that you are deeply and inherently biased towards everything related to the Soviet Union."

No apologies from this quarter, however you want to characterize it. The SU was all about bondage of the individual to the state and a devaluation of human life. I see very little difference between this and Nazism. "It was a good cause but ultimately failed" is total bull**** in my book--a whitewash of history.

By my calculation, every man, woman, and child in the US bears at least $10,000 in debt for money that went to spend the SU into oblivion (yourself included as a presumed US taxpayer, myself and Uncle Sam thank you very much ). That's a lot of butter.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Felch X
The classical imperial scheme of colony exploitation is a myth by your standards. Overall, the Europeans spent more money building infrastructure and exsuring stability than they got back from exploitation.

No, that's hardly possible, for it would contradict to the greed principle. The classical empires pumped out more resources than they invested into infrastructure. But of course this doesn't want to say that they didn't contribute to the development of their colonies.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Sonic
USSR invested to it's sattleites because it needed to if it wanted to support their puppet-governments there. Americans also helped Europe with Marshall plan for example. Both USA and USSR in the cold war needed to invest as much money as possible into their supporters to stop them going to the other side.

I agree with that. I believe that both the Soviet Union and the United States were/are empires of a new kind, not just classical empires.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Sonic
What about city of Vilnius? Do you mean giving it to Lithuania in exchange to annexation? In the end, we've got nothing and Russia got whole country.

OK, but still it's not quite correct of you to say that you didn't benefit at all from the Soviet Union.

As for Russians being criminals in Lithuania, I've already stated the reasons - it's mostly because some of them thinks that Russia should still rule, etc.

Perhaps it's just your (incorrect) perception. I don't believe that Russians in Lithuania think that your country should be part of Russia. It's nonsense. You, the Lithuanian state, share some part of responsibility that these people don't feel themselves comfortably enough.

[Hobbes]

Eastern European countries should be thankful to me. It was me that led Czechs to victory over those evil Slovs a few years back. That's right. Me baby, *me*!

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by DanS
No apologies from this quarter, however you want to characterize it. The SU was all about bondage of the individual to the state and a devaluation of human life. I see very little difference between this and Nazism. "It was a good cause but ultimately failed" is total bull**** in my book--a whitewash of history.

I'm sorry but I can't see a political system based on socialism, granted a very deeply flawed and ugly version, as being as bad as a political system like nazism and fascism that was based racism and pure hatred and murder. I can't see that at all.

In their own way the Sovs tried to lift up Eastern Europe and improve the standard of living of its peoples and make it a showcase to the West. They should be thankful for that. If the Sovs had acted like the nazis they would have gone in and utterly destroyed every society in Eastern Europe that fought with the Germans during the war, which was most of them. By and large they didn't do that and its a credit to them.

I think Russians must have big hearts, unlike some you Yanks apparently.

The Cold War is over Dan. Get over it, move on.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by DanS
"It tells that you are deeply and inherently biased towards everything related to the Soviet Union."

No apologies from this quarter, however you want to characterize it. The SU was all about bondage of the individual to the state and a devaluation of human life. I see very little difference between this and Nazism. "It was a good cause but ultimately failed" is total bull**** in my book--a whitewash of history.

Bondage of the individual to the state is a little bit less evil than killing out inferior races, don't you think? As for "devaluation of human life", this is correct only about the period of repressions, but not about the period when the USSR became a more civilized country.

By my calculation, every man, woman, and child in the US bears at least $10,000 in debt for money that went to spend the SU into oblivion (yourself included as a presumed US taxpayer, myself and Uncle Sam thank you very much ). That's a lot of butter.

I wasn't a US taxpayer back then . I don't deserve your gratitude.

[DanS]

"If the Sovs had acted like the nazis they would have gone in and utterly destroyed every society in Eastern Europe that fought with the Germans during the war"

Pure conjecture on your part. We never saw a post-war Nazism to make that comparison.

"By and large they didn't do that and its a credit to them."

Again, this is trying to rehabilitate communism on the back of nazism. What a silly exercise.

"I wasn't a US taxpayer back then"

Vagabond: By the magic of compounding interest, you too can participate in the defeat of the SU to the tune of about $750 a year.

[Hobbes]

The SU was all about bondage of the individual to the state and a devaluation of human life.

It depends on what decade, but the US did the same, they just hid under a noble guise. The oppression and inequality didn't lie so much in the government as in the SU, but in the minds of the American people, with copious amounts of racism and crime. To quote the guenius, Sean Connery(in the movie, the Russia House): "I like Russia. It's just as corrupt as we are, but there's less bull****"

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
I think Russians must have big hearts ...

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by DanS
Vagabond: By the magic of compounding interest, you too can participate in the defeat of the SU to the tune of about $750 a year.

If so, I'd prefer not to defeat the SU back then, but rather to receive all this money in cash here and now.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by DanS
"If the Sovs had acted like the nazis they would have gone in and utterly destroyed every society in Eastern Europe that fought with the Germans during the war"

Pure conjecture on your part. We never saw a post-war Nazism to find out.

German forces went into Poland and Russia with orders to anhiliate communism and with it slavic society. This policy was carried out in all occuppied areas. Haven't you heard of the Commissar Order? It wasn't just Jews who were murdered on en masse in Russia and Poland. So we know exactly what the nazis would do because they did it. Post war it would have only got worse. They wanted to reduce the whole population to a leaderless pool of slave labour, colonise the whole area with Germans and steal everything. Did the Soviets do that in Eastern Europe? NO.

How can you comment on issues like this when you, like so many of your Americans are so pig ignorant of the basic historical facts?

"By and large they didn't do that and its a credit to them."

Again, this is trying to rehabilitate communism on the back of nazism. What a silly exercise.

No it isn't. Stalinist communism was evil but not as evil as nazism. Are you incapable of making distinctions by degree? How many more planes have to crash into your buildings before you stop seeing the world in black and white?

[DanS]

AH: I will not defend the Nazis to any degree. If you would say that the Nazis were 9/10 evil and the SU 8/10 evil, especially under Stalin, I would agree. Those are shades of gray to which I could subscribe. But communism goes nowhere in this comparison. Nowhere near "it was a good cause, but..."

"and with it slavic society"

And no less than did Stalin.

"Are you incapable of making distinctions by degree?"

My grayscale has quite a bit more contrast on the lighter side.

[Alexander's Horse]

I won't argue Stalinism was good but you really need to read up on what the Nazis were trying to do to see why their depravity left Stalin in the shade.