Anti-life crowd outraged that the unborn are cared for.

[loinburger]

Originally posted by joseph1944
BTW I have never kill anyone.

You say that as though it's something particularly unusual.

[chequita guevara]

There is a difference between being human, and being a human being. My toenail clippings are human, that doesn't endow them with any special rights. Fetal tissue is human. It is not a human being. A human being has a mind, it is aware.

ckweb, while it is true that abortion may increase risks of other causes of death, it is still more dangerous for a woman to carry a child to term than to have an abotion.

Psychological difficulties from having aboortions is because people call them baby murders, not because of anything inherent in the abortion. You people mess with their heads and then says, "See, it causes psychological problems." You're like the kids who murder theor parents and then ask for leniency because they're orphans.

[JohnM2433]

joseph1944,

Are you saying that anything that can become a human must itself be a human? Then an ovum and a sperm together would be a human, whether or not the latter had fertilized the former. I find that hard to swallow. Also, consider that any cell in your body could theoretically be used to create a clone. Are they all individual humans, too?

Of course, it all depends on what what it means for one thing to "become" another. Perhaps you should define your terms here.

Those who favor abortion rights do so because they believe a woman has the right to end a pregnancy, not because they wish to pick on the weak. At least, I believe most of them do. This stance most clearly supports legal abortion early in the pregnancy, when the pregnancy cannot be terminated without killing the fetus. It less clearly supports it later in the pregnancy, when the fetus could survive outside the womb...

Some "pro-choice" individuals have refused to consent that a fetus has the right to life if it accidentally passes out of the birth canal in a partial-birth abortion procedure. In this case, the right to terminate a pregnancy is no longer at issue -- it is purely about whether a mother has the right to kill her baby. One columnist (George Will?) wrote about this. Abortion advocates, he said, claim that it would needlessly harm women's health to grant a fetus rights as soon as it passes into the birth canal, since this would simply encourage more dangerous methods of abortion. But would it not be even safer simply to deliver the fetus completely and then kill it? The courts have said that it is absurd to grant the fetus rights based on its position relative to the mother. But the principle that a fetus's rights are based on its position relative to the mother was the basis of Roe v. Wade, which now represents a "crumbling wall against infanticide".

If we can ever safely transfer a fetus from a real uterus to an artificial womb and grow it there, the case for abortion will be even less clear-cut. On the other hand, it still seems possible that early-stage embryos would be denied human rights. One common argument is: if an embryo receives a soul at the moment of conception, then identical twins must share the same soul. If they don't, then ensoulment must take place at a later time.

If humans ever can be grown in artificial wombs, then we will finally have to answer the question of when a person first gains legal rights, quite independant from a woman's right to abortion. At what point could a fetus in an AW still legally be terminated by its/his/her parents? Up to the point when it was taken out? What, then, if we could leave someone in an AW for 20 years, grow him/her all the way to adulthood? Would it then be legal to kill that ... organism ... (although I think most of my readers would agree that we do now have a "person") and use his/her organs for transplants?

[ckweb]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
ckweb, while it is true that abortion may increase risks of other causes of death, it is still more dangerous for a woman to carry a child to term than to have an abotion.

You raise a fair objection. But, you ignore the reality that the pregnancy, especially in Western society, was already chosen by the woman (aside from those instances I listed in my previous post: rape and failure of contraceptive).

Incidentally, the risks of taking a baby to term in Western society are considerably reduced. The risks are also not as far ranging as the risks associated with abortion. For instance, taking a baby to term does not increase the risks of cancer or infertility. The major risk, which is miniscule in Western society, is of course death in the event of a complicated pregnancy/delivery. But here, doctors usually know these risks in advance (via ultrasound) and an abortion is a reasonable medical alternative when the life of the mother is at risk.

The only other major problem I can think of off-hand is post-partum depression, which is just as likely to affect a woman having an abortion as it is a woman carrying a baby to term.

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Psychological difficulties from having aboortions is because people call them baby murders, not because of anything inherent in the abortion. You people mess with their heads and then says, "See, it causes psychological problems." You're like the kids who murder theor parents and then ask for leniency because they're orphans.

That is too simple.

First, don't include me in the term "You." I have called no-one a baby murderer. I have nothing but compassion for women who have had abortions.

Second, the psychological issues surrounding abortions are well-documented . . . while undoubtedly the rhetoric of irresponsible advocates of pro-choice does not help, the reality is that most women, for better or worse, understand their identity (at least in part) in relation to the womb and the ability to give life. Abortions, just like miscarriages, have profound biological and psychological affects on many women. To claim that it is solely the result of pro-choice rhetoric (or even mostly the result of pro-choice rhetoric) is ignorant in the extreme!

[joseph1944]

Originally posted by JohnM2433
joseph1944,

Are you saying that anything that can become a human must itself be a human? Then an ovum and a sperm together would be a human, whether or not the latter had fertilized the former. I find that hard to swallow. Also, consider that any cell in your body could theoretically be used to create a clone. Are they all individual humans, too?

When you plant a tree, it will grow to a tree and not become a bush. If you mate a bull and cow, you will get a baby bull or heifer and not some other animal.
When a woman is pregnant the baby will not be a monkey, it will become a living human being.
The Pro choise groups like to call the new fetus anything but a human, however if left along, it will be a human.

Of course, it all depends on what what it means for one thing to "become" another. Perhaps you should define your terms here.

Those who favor abortion rights do so because they believe a woman has the right to end a pregnancy, not because they wish to pick on the weak. At least, I believe most of them do.

I have not heard the numbers lately, however a large
portion are woman that get pregnant just screwing around.
I know a woman that was pregnant 7 times. She has 4 living children. There is a large gap between no. 1 and 2 child. With pregnancy 2, 3, and 4, she would go to LA and each time she was there, she told her husband that she had a miss carriage. With pregnancy 5, 6, & 7 her husband said no LA trips and now they have child no 2, 3, & 4. This was in the early 60s.

This stance most clearly supports legal abortion early in the pregnancy, when the pregnancy cannot be terminated without killing the fetus. It less clearly supports it later in the pregnancy, when the fetus could survive outside the womb...

Some "pro-choice" individuals have refused to consent that a fetus has the right to life if it accidentally passes out of the birth canal in a partial-birth abortion procedure. In this case, the right to terminate a pregnancy is no longer at issue -- it is purely about whether a mother has the right to kill her baby. One columnist (George Will?) wrote about this. Abortion advocates, he said, claim that it would needlessly harm women's health to grant a fetus rights as soon as it passes into the birth canal, since this would simply encourage more dangerous methods of abortion. But would it not be even safer simply to deliver the fetus completely and then kill it? The courts have said that it is absurd to grant the fetus rights based on its position relative to the mother. But the principle that a fetus's rights are based on its position relative to the mother was the basis of Roe v. Wade, which now represents a "crumbling wall against infanticide".

If we can ever safely transfer a fetus from a real uterus to an artificial womb and grow it there, the case for abortion will be even less clear-cut. On the other hand, it still seems possible that early-stage embryos would be denied human rights. One common argument is: if an embryo receives a soul at the moment of conception, then identical twins must share the same soul. If they don't, then ensoulment must take place at a later time.

If humans ever can be grown in artificial wombs, then we will finally have to answer the question of when a person first gains legal rights, quite independant from a woman's right to abortion. At what point could a fetus in an AW still legally be terminated by its/his/her parents? Up to the point when it was taken out? What, then, if we could leave someone in an AW for 20 years, grow him/her all the way to adulthood? Would it then be legal to kill that ... organism ... (although I think most of my readers would agree that we do now have a "person") and use his/her organs for transplants?

In Calif. if you do not want the baby, all you do is tell the hospital and they will take the baby. Plus the cops will not be coming after you.
I belived every fetus has a right to live as a person someday. That person may do good or bad, but we will never know if it is terminated before it get his or her chance.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


So you're agreed then that we should hasten it's arrival for Saddam Hussein?

Sure.

For that matter, everybody else except me.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by joseph1944
When you plant a tree, it will grow to a tree and not become a bush. If you mate a bull and cow, you will get a baby bull or heifer and not some other animal.
When a woman is pregnant the baby will not be a monkey, it will become a living human being.
The Pro choise groups like to call the new fetus anything but a human, however if left along, it will be a human.

We have been through the same grounds here with November Adam a long time ago.

The thing is what decides something is human or not is the genes.

Bring this to its logical conclusion, then, is you can't treat cancers in people, because these cancer cells are human.

[mindseye]

I hate to rain on Lincoln's parade here, but it's pretty hard to believe that the Bush administration has suddenly started caring about healthcare for the unborn of immigrants, in light of the fact that previously they couldn't care less about immigrant women, their healthcare, or children.

Sorry. It's just another cynical ploy.

[Imran Siddiqui]

For that matter, everybody else except me.

No women?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

For that matter, everybody else except me.

No women?

Damn.

Let me play cool, 'k?

[Lincoln]

Originally posted by mindseye
I hate to rain on Lincoln's parade here, but it's pretty hard to believe that the Bush administration has suddenly started caring about healthcare for the unborn of immigrants, in light of the fact that previously they couldn't care less about immigrant women, their healthcare, or children.

Sorry. It's just another cynical ploy.

What are you talking about? You love to rain on my parades. Anyway, here is some information that might interest some from abortion clinic workers and others:

Why do we need informed consent laws or mandatory counseling for women having abortions? Don't the clinics give accurate information about the fetus?
"Counselors are just to give the appearance of help. . . [They] think of themselves as company for the women."
--abortion counselor
"I have never yet counseled anybody to have the baby. I'm also doing women's counseling on campus at Albany State, and there I am expected to present alternatives. Whereas at the abortion clinic you aren't really expected to."
--abortion counselor
Rachel Weeping and Other Essays About Abortion. James Tunstead Burtchaell, editor. New York: Universal Press, 1982 pgs 42-43
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"I was trained by a professional marketing director in how to sell abortions over the telephone. He took every one of our receptionists, nurses, and anyone else who would deal with people over the phone through an extensive training period. The object was, when the girl called, to hook the sale so that she wouldn't get an abortion somewhere else, or adopt out her baby, or change her mind. We were doing it for the money."
--Nina Whitten, chief secretary at a Dallas abortion clinic under Dr. Curtis Boyd
"They [the women] are never allowed to look at the ultrasound because we knew that if they so much as heard the heart beat, they wouldn't want to have an abortion."-Dr. Randall
'Pro-Choice 1990: Skeletons in the Closet" by David Kuperlain and Mark Masters in Oct "New Dimensions" magazine
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"Every woman has these same two questions: First, "Is it a baby?" "No" the counselor assures her. "It is a product of conception (or a blood clot, or a piece of tissue)" Even though these counselors see six week babies daily, with arms, legs and eyes that are closed like newborn puppies, they lie to the women. How many women would have an abortion, if they told them the truth?"
--Carol Everett, former owner of two clinics and director of four
"A Walk Through an Abortion Clinic" by Carol Everett ALL About Issues magazine Aug-Sept 1991, p 117
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"If a woman we were counseling expressed doubts about having an abortion, we would say whatever was necessary to persuade her to abort immediately."
--Judy W., former office manager of the second largest abortion clinic in El Paso, Texas
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"We tried to avoid the women seeing them [the fetuses] They always wanted to know the sex, but we lied and said it was too early to tell. It's better for the women to think of the fetus as an 'it.'
--Abortion clinic worker Norma Eidelman quoted in Rachel Weeping p 34
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"The counselor at our clinic would cry with the girls at the drop of a hat. She would find their weakness and work on it. The women were never given any alternatives. They were told how much trouble it is to have a baby."
--former abortion worker Debra Harry, quoted in the film "Meet the Abortion Providers" 1989
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"When discussing the sonogram, you are supposed to tell the client that it is a measurement as far as the pregnancy is concerned, but not a measure of the fetal head or anything like that."
--Rosemary Petruso, on her training to be an abortion counselor. Her story appeared in the St. Louis Review and was also quoted in "Women Exploited: The Other Victims of Abortion" Paula Ervin, editor. Huntington: Our Sunday Visitor, 1985
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"Sometimes we lied. A girl might ask what her baby was like at a certain point in the pregnancy: Was it a baby yet? Even as early as 12 weeks a baby is totally formed, he has fingerprints, turns his head, fans his toes, feels pain. But we would say 'It's not a baby yet. It's just tissue, like a clot.'"
--Kathy Sparks told in "The Conversion of Kathy Sparks" by Gloria Williamson, Christian Herald Jan 1986 p 28
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"It is when I am holding a plastic uterus in one hand, a suction tube in the other, moving them together in imitation of the scrubbing to come, that woman ask the most secret question. I am speaking in a matter-of-fact voice about 'the tissue' and 'the contents' when the woman suddenly catches my eye and says 'How big is the baby now?' These words suggest a quiet need for definition of the boundaries being drawn. It isn't so odd, after all, that she feels relief when I describe the growing buds bulbous shape, its miniature nature. Again, I gauge, and sometimes lie a little, weaseling around its infantile features until its clinging power slackens."
--abortion worker Sallie Tisdale "We Do Abortions Here" Oct 1987 Harpers Magazine p 68
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"Vital signs should be observed regularly, and a Doppler [for listening to the fetal heartbeat] inaudible to the patient should be used at intervals to determine the presence or absence of fetal heart tones.. This [informed consent] is a controversial area, but most professionals in the field feel that it is not advisable for patients to view the products of conception, to be told the sex of the fetus, or to be informed of a multiple pregnancy"
--Abortionist Warren Hern in "Abortion Practice" J.B. Lippincott Company, 1984 pgs 145 and 304
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"Sonography in connection with induced abortion may have psychological hazards. Seeing a blown-up, moving image of the embryo she is carrying can be distressing to a woman who is about to undergo an abortion, Dr. Sally Faith Dorfman noted. She stressed that the screen should be turned away from the patient."
--"Obstetrics and Gynecology News" editorial February 15-28, 1986
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"95 percent of women who have had abortions said that their Planned Parenthood counselors gave them " . . . little or no information about the fetus which the abortion would destroy."
--From Aborted Women-Silent No More by David Reardon, Crossway Books, 1987
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"Now, the baby I aborted was eleven weeks old, and can you imagine what this did to me when I saw this baby with the hands and face, sucking his thumb? And they told me it was a cluster of cells!"
--Carole K.
State Director of Women Exploited By Abortion. From Women Exploited, which is a sampling of the stories of WEBA (Women Exploited by Abortion) chapter members.
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"I have seen hundreds of patients in my office who have had abortions and were just lied to by the abortion counselor. Namely 'This is less painful than having a tooth removed. It is not a baby.' Afterwards, the woman sees Life magazine and breaks down and goes into a major depression."
--Psychologist Vincent Rue quoted in "Abortion Inc" David Kupelian and Jo Ann Gasper, New Dimensions, October 1991 p 16
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"The Pennsylavania Abortion Control Act went into effect on March 20, 1994. For the past six years, health centers that provide abortion services and the lawyers representing them have been fighting the provisions of the law. What does the law provide? Women seeking an abortion must be told by a physician at least 24 hours prior to the procedure the nature of the procedure and the probable gestational age of the fetus. Women must also be told that the Commonwealth's materials are available describing fetal development and listing for agencies that offer alternatives to abortion. . . What we must do now is make sure that our Representatives know how strongly we feel about the law. Call them, write to them! Let them know how burdensome these regulations are. Vote for pro-choice candidates...."
--Elizabeth Blackwell Health Center for Women newsletter April 1994
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Why is there so much fuss about abortion? Isn't what is removed only a mass of tissue?
"But when I look in the basin, among the curdlike blood clots, I see and elfin thorax, attentuated, its pencilline ribs all in parallel rows with tiny knobs of spine rounding upwards. A translucent arm and hand swim beside."
--Sallie Tisdale "We Do Abortions Here"
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"I can remember...the resident doctor sitting down, putting the tube in, and removing the contents. I saw the bloody material coming down the plastic tube, and it went into a big jar. My job afterwards was to go and undo the jar, and to see what was inside.
I didn't have any views on abortion; I was in a training program, and this was a brand new experience. I was going to get to see a new procedure and learn. I opened the jar and took the little piece of stockingnette stocking and opened the little bag. The resident doctor said "Now put it on the blue towel and check it out. We want to see if we got it all.' I thought, "that'll be exciting-hands on experience looking at tissue.' I opened the sock up and put it on the towel, and there were parts of a person in there.
I had taken anatomy, I was a medical student. I knew what I was looking at. There was a little scapula and an arm, I saw some ribs and a chest, and a little tiny head. I saw a piece of a a leg, and a tiny hand and an arm, and you know, it was like somebody put a hot poker into me. I had a conscience, and it hurt. Well, I checked it out and there were two arms and two legs and one head and so forth, and I turned and said "I guess you got it all.' That was a very hard experience to go through emotionally.
--Former abortionist
"Saline abortions have to be done in the hospital because of the complications that can arise. Not that they can't arise during other times, but more so now. The saline, a salt solution, is injected into the woman's sac, and the baby starts dying a slow, violent death. The mother feels everything, and many times it is at this point when she realizes that she really has a live baby inside her, because the baby starts fighting violently, for his or her life. He's just fighting inside because he's burning."
--Debra Harry
"One night a lady delivered and I was called to come and see her because she was 'uncontrollable.' I went into the room, and she was going to pieces; she was having a nervous breakdown, screaming and thrashing. The other patients were upset because this lady was screaming. I walked in, and here was this little saline abortion baby kicking. It had been born alive, and was kicking and moving for a little while before it finally died of those terrible burns, because the salt solution gets into the lungs and burns the lungs too. I'll tell you one thing about D & E . You never have to worry about a baby's being born alive. I won't describe D & E ; other than to say that, as a doctor, you are sitting there tearing, and I mean tearing- you need a lot of strength to do it- arms and legs off of babies and putting them in a stack on top of the table."
--Dr. David Brewer of Glen Ellyn Illinois
"I remember an experience as a resident on a hysterotomy. I remember seeing the baby move underneath the sack of membranes, as the cesarean incision was made, before the doctor broke the water.
The thought came to me, "My God, that's a person" Then he broke the water. And when he broke the water, it was like I had a pain in my heart, just like when I saw that first suction abortion. And t hen he delivered the baby,. and I couldn't touch it.. I wasn't much of an assistant. I just stood there, and the reality of what was doing on finally began to seep into my calloused brain and heart.
They took that little baby that was making little sounds and moving and kicking, and set it on that table in a cold, stainless steel bowl. Every time I would look over while we were repairing the incision in uterus and finishing the Caesarean, I would see that little person moving in that bowl. And it kicked and moved less and less, of course, as time went on. I can remember going over and looking at the baby when we were done with the surgery and the baby was still alive. You could see the chest was moving and the heart was beating, and the baby would try to take a little breath, and it really hurt inside, and it began to educate me as to what abortion really was."
quoted in "Pro-Choice 1990: Skeletons in the Closet"
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"Following [the doctor's] directions, I took the collection bottle and poured its contents into a shallow pan. Then I used water to rinse off the blood and smaller particles which clouded the bottom of the pan.
'Now look closely,' the doctor said. 'It is important that we have got all the stuff out.'
I looked in the pan to find that the stuff consisted of the remains of what had been, a few minutes before, a thirteen week old fetus. I could make out the remains of arms and legs and a trunk and a skull. I tried to piece them back together in my mind, to see if there were any missing parts.

[Lincoln]

Here's some more:

Most of the pieces were so battered and bloody they were not recognizably human. Then my eyes locked upon a perfect little hand, less than half a centimeter long. I stared at four tiny fingers and a tiny opposed thumb, complete with tiny translucent fingers.
And I knew what I had done."
--former abortionist "Chi An" quoted in Stephen Mosher's "A Mother's Ordeal: One Woman's Fight Against China's One Child Policy" pgs 60-61
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"I got to where I couldn't stand to look at the little bodies anymore"
--Dr. Beverly McMillan, when asked why she stopped performing abortions.
"I have been there, and I have seen these totally formed babies as early as ten weeks... with the leg missing, or with their head off. I have seen the little rib cages..."
--Debra Harry
"We all wish it were formless, but its not...and its painful. There is a lot of emotional pain."
--abortion clinic worker
Quoted in "The Ex Abortionists: They Have Confronted Reality" Washington Post April 1, 1988 p a 21
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"You have to become a bit schizophrenic. In one room, you encourage the patient that the slight irregularity in the fetal heart is not important, that she is going to have a fine, healthy baby. Then, in the next room you assure another woman, on whom you just did a saline abortion, that it is a good thing that the heartbeat is already irregular....she has nothing to worry about, she will NOT have a live baby...All of a sudden one noticed that at the time of the saline infusion there was a lot of activity in the uterus. That's not fluid currents. That's obviously the fetus being distressed by swallowing the concentrated salt solution and kicking violently and that's to all intents and purposes, the death trauma. ..somebody has to do it, and unfortunately we are the executioners in this instance..."
--abortionist Dr.Szenes
"And then to see, to be with somebody while they're having the injection when they're twenty or twenty-four weeks, and you see the baby moving around, kicking around, as this needle goes into the stomach, you know."
--Susan Lindstrom, M.S.W.
"I look inside the bucket in front of me. There is a small naked person in there, floating in a bloody liquid- plainly the tragic victim of a drowning accident. But hen perhaps this was no accident, because the body is purple with bruises and the face has the agonized tauntness of one forced to die too soon. I have seen this face before, on a Russian soldier lying on a frozen snow-covered hill, stiff with death, and cold."
--Pro-choice doctor and author Magda Denes
"Performing Abortions" by Magda Denes, M.D. "Commentary" Oct. 26 1976 p 35-37
Also quoted Magda Denes, "[the doctor] pulls out something, which he slaps on the instrument table. "there," he says, "A leg." . . . I turn to Mr. Smith. . . He points to the instrument table, where there is a perfectly formed, slightly bent leg, about three inches long. . . "There, I've got the head out now." ...There lies a head. It is the smallest human head I have ever seen, but it is unmistakably part of a person."
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"If I see a case...after twenty weeks, where it frankly is a child to me, I really agonize over it because the potential is so imminently there...On the other hand, I have another position, which I think is superior in the hierarchy of questions, and that is "who owns this child?" It's got to be the mother."
--Dr. James MacMahon, who performs D & X abortions, in Nat Hentoff "It's Just Too Late: Third Trimester abortions are an Outrage and an Insult to the Human Race" July 27, 1993 Pittsburg Post-Gazette
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Describing an abortion that apparently did not prevent the child from being born alive, Dr. Haskell said this, "It came out very quickly after I put the scissors up in the cervical canal and pierced the skull and spread the scissors apart...in the previous two, I had used the suction to collapse the skull."
--Dayton Daily News Sun Dec 10 1989
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"The first time, I felt like a murderer, but I did it again and again and again, and now, 20 years later, I am facing what happened to me as a doctor and as a human being. Sure, I got hard. Sure, the money was important. And oh, it was an easy thing, once I had taken the step, to see the women as animals and the babies as just tissue."
--abortionist quoted from a radio talk show by John Rice in "Abortion" Litt D. Murfreesboro, TN.
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"I have never known a woman who, after her baby was born, was not overjoyed that I had not killed it."
--Abortionist Aleck Bourne "A Doctor Speaks" London Express, Jan 25
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"We know that its killing, but the state permits killing under certain circumstances"
--Dr. Neville Sender, abortionist
"Even now I feel a little peculiar about it, because as a physician I was trained to conserve life, and here I am destroying it."
--abortionist
"There was not one [doctor] who at some point in the questioning did not say "This is murder."'
--Magda Denes on her two years of research done for her book In Necessity and Sorrow; Life and Death Inside an Abortion Clinic.
"You know there is something in there alive that you are killing"
--another abortionist interviewed by Denes
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"Clinic workers may say they support a woman's right to choose, but they will also say that they do not want to see tiny hands and tiny feet....there is a great difference between the intellectual support of a woman's right to choose and the actual participation in the carnage of abortion. Because seeing body parts bothers the workers."
--Judith Fetrow, former clinic worker from San Francisco quoted in "Meet the Abortion Providers III" from a taped conference in Chicago 4/3/93
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..the emotional turmoil that the procedure inevitably wreaks on the physicians and staff...There is no possibility of denial of an act of destruction by the operator...the sensations of dismemberment flow through the forceps like an electric current."
--Abortionist quoted in "Meeting of American Association of Planned Parenthood Physicians" OB GYN News P 196
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Quoted in Melody Green and Sharon Bennett "The Crime of Being Alive: Abortion, Euthanasia, Infanticide" p 3
"Remember, there is a human being at the other end of the table taking that kid apart. We've had a couple of guys drinking too much, taking drugs, even a suicide or two."
--Dr. Julius Butler, a professor of obstetrics and gynecology at the University of Minnesota Medical School
"Arms, legs, and chests come out of the forceps. It's not a sight for everybody"
--Dr. William Benbow Thompson at the University of California at Irvine
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"Abortion Practice" by Warren Hern, M.D., Boulder Colorado Abortionist published in 1984 by the J.B. Lippenott Company. Hern performs abortions up until the 4th month of pregnancy
"The procedure changes significantly at 21 weeks because fetal tissues become much more cohesive and difficult to dismember" p 154
"A long curved Mayo scissors may be necessary to decapitate and dismember the fetus." - 154
"The aggregate fetal tissue is weighted, then the following fetal parts are measured, foot length, knee to heel length, and biparietal diameter" p 164
"Television interviews in particular should focus on the public issue involved (right to confidential and professional medical care, freedom of choice and so forth) and not on the specific details of the procedure." p 323
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"Nobody wants to perform abortions after ten weeks, because by then you see the features of the baby, hands, feet. It's really barbaric."
--abortionist quoted in M.D. Doctors Talk About Themselves by John Pekkanen p 93
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"I was for abortion, I thought it was a woman's right to terminate pregnancy she did not want. Now I'm not so sure. I am a student nurse nearing the end of my OB-GYN rotation at a major metropolitan hospital and teaching center. It wasn't until I saw what abortion really involves that I changed my mind. After the first week in the abortion clinic several people in my clinical group were shaky about their previously positive feelings about abortion. This new attitude resulted from our actually seeing a Prostaglandin abortion, one similar in nature to the widely used saline abortion. . . this method is being used for terminations of pregnancies of sixteen weeks and over. I used to find rationales. the fetus isn't real. Abdomens aren't really very swollen. It isn't 'alive.' No more excuses...I am a member of the health profession and members of my class are now ambivalent about abortion. I now know a great deal more about what is involved in the issue. Women should perceive fully what abortion is; how destructive an act it is both for themselves and their unborn child. Whatever psychological coping mechanisms are employed during the process, the sight of a fetus in a hospital bedpan remains the final statement."
Quoted in "The Zero People: Essays on Life" by Jeff Lane Hensley, editor. Ann Arbor: Servant Books, 1983
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"I found much distress in the clinic, but it involved not only the women. I saw the pain of the babies who were born burned from the saline solution used for late-term abortions. I saw the bits of feet, bits of hands, the mangled heads and bodies of the little people. I saw pain and felt pain."
--One time clinic worker Paula Sutcliffe in "Precious in My Sight" "Pro-Life Feminism: Different Voices" Gail Garnier-Sweet, editor
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>From "Rachel Weeping"
"The doctors would remove the fetus while performing hysterotomies and then lay it on the table., where it would squirm until it died. ..They all had perfect forms and shapes. I couldn't take it. No nurse could."
--Joyce Craig, director of a Brooklyn clinic of Planned Parenthood. who assisted in abortion for two months, then quit. p 34
Edward Eichner, director of medicine at a Cleveland abortion facility said "No doctor, for ethical, moral or honest reasons wants to do nothing but abortions...women don't like to do abortions over and over for moral reasons. Sometimes our women doctors become pregnant themselves, which upsets the patients. At the same time, if a woman is carrying a baby, she doesn't like to abort someone else's. We have much more trouble keeping women doctors on the staff than men." --p 49
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"After an abortion, the doctor must inspect these remains to make sure that all the fetal parts and placenta have been removed. Any tissue left inside the uterus can start an infection. Dr. Bours squeezed the contents of the sock into a shallow dish and poked around with his finger. "You can see a teeny tiny hand' he said.
--abortion clinic worker quoted in "Is the Fetus Human" and in Dudley Clendinen, "The Abortion Conflict: What it Does to One Doctor" New York Times Magazine Aug 11 1985 p 26
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"From May to November 1988, I worked for an abortionist. He specializes in third trimester killings. I witnessed evidence of the brutal, cold blooded murder of over 600 viable, healthy babies at seven, eight and nine months gestation. A very, very few of these babies, less than 2%, were handicapped...I thought I was pro-choice and I was glad to be working in an abortion clinic. I thought I was helping provide a noble service to women in crisis....I was instructed to falsify the age of the babies in medical records. I was required to lie to the mothers over the phone, as they scheduled their appointments, and to tell them that they were not 'too far along' Then I had to note, in the records that Dr. Tiller's needle had successfully pierced the walls of the baby's heart, injecting the poison what brought death...one day, Dr. Tiller came up the stairs from the basement, where the mothers were in labor. He was carrying a large cardboard box, and ducked into the employees only area of the office so that he wouldn't have to walk through the waiting room. He passed behind my desk as I sat working on the computer, and he turned the corner to go around a short hall. He called out for me to come and help him. the box was so big and heavy in his arms that he couldn't get the key into the lock. So I unlocked the door for him, and , pushing the door open, I saw very clearly the gleaming metal of the crematorium- a full sized crematorium, just like the one's used in funeral homes. I went back to my computer. I could hear Dr. Tiller firing up the gas oven. A few minutes later I could smell burning human flesh. Mine was the agony of a participant, however reluctant, in the act of prenatal infanticide."
--Luhra Tivis, now a member of Operation Rescue, on her experience in the abortion business Quoted in Celebrate Life Sept/Oct 1994 "Where is the Real Violence?"

[Lincoln]

And finally some more:

From the film "Meet the Abortion Providers"
"My heart got callous to against the fact that I was a murderer, but that baby lying in a cold bowl educated me as to what abortion really was."
--former abortionist Dr. David Brewer
"I want the general public to know what the doctors know- that this is a person, this is a baby. That this is not some kind of blob of tissue."
--Dr. Anthony Levantino
"I have taken the lives of innocent babies, and I have ripped them from their mother's wombs with a powerful suction machine"
--McArthur Hill, M.D.
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"I am deeply troubled by my own increasing certainty that I have in fact presided over 60,000 deaths. There is no longer serious doubt in my mind that human life exists from the very onset of pregnancy"
--Dr. Bernard Nathanson, "Deeper Into Abortion" New England Journal of Medicine Nov 1974 p 1189
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"I dare say that any thinking, caring individual can't not realize that he is ending life, or potential life."
--abortionist
"[Powell] said "Is this a fair way of expressing what you have just said, Doctor? You tell the mother "because your baby is defective, you have the right to kill it or not to kill it. If you choose to kill it, I will do the killing." "Of course," he [the abortionist] said. "There is no other way to say it and be honest."
both from The Zero People pg 9
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"I wanted to be the world's best abortionist, for the good of my patients. If I was going to do this, I was going to do it right. So, after I met each patient, reviewed the medical information gathered by my nurse, examined the patient and performed the abortion, I would then carefully sift through the remains to be sure all the parts were accounted for. I had to find four extremities (two arms and two legs) a spine, a skull, and the placenta, or my patient would suffer later from an incomplete abortion...My attention was so focused on my perceived patient that I managed to deny that there were, in fact, two patients involved- the expectant mother and a very small child...I had to wonder, how can having a child be so wrong for some people that they will pay me to end its life?"
--former abortionist Dr. McMillan "How One Doctor Changed Her Mind About Abortion" Focus on the Family, Colorado Springs
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"Abortions are very draining, exhausting, heart-rending. There are a lot of tears. Some patients turn on you...I do them because I take the attitude that women who are going to terminate babies deserve the same kind of treatment as women who carry babies...I've done a couple thousand, and its been a significant financial boon...the only way I can do an abortion is to consider only the woman as my patient and block out the baby."
--abortionist quoted in M.D. Doctors Talk About Themselves
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>From the article "Abortion Providers Share Inner Conflicts" which appeared in the July 12 1993 issue of AAA News, a publication of the American Medical Association:
"I have angry feelings at myself for feeling good about grasping the calvaria, for feeling good about doing a technically good procedure that destroys a fetus, kills a baby."
"When I put my hands on somebody to feel how big they are and I get kicked, I am barely able to talk at that moment."
an abortionist stated that 'somebody had asked her what they could say to the staff to make them look less shocked when they look at a 20 week fetus.."It's hard to be in a profession where you have a hard time answering the questions that other people ask you about what you do."
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>From World magazine August 1995 and at
<http://web2.airmail.net/orn/world.htm>
"You would just look in the buckets and see arms and legs. I have horrible dreams about that now. It was something you would see in a scary movie."
--Former clinic worker Kirsten Breedlove
"The babies were frozen in a freezer. Now I wished I had not looked." --Norma McCorvey
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"If the abortion is well done, we don't have to watch the baby die. So we inject a salt solution. The result is like putting salt on a slug, but we don't have to watch it."
--Dr. Russell Sacco M.D. quoted in James Long "Infants Aborted Alive: Officials Wink at Laws"
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"Even if you are pro-choice, no one likes to see a dead fetus." -Vilma Valdez, Education Director Planned Parenthood of Greater Miami, The Miami Herald, Oct 24 1992
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"I went up to the lab one day and on the pathologiest's table I saw what I thought was little rubber doll until I realized it was a fetus. . .I got really shook up and upset and I couldn't believe it. It had all its fingers and toes, you know, hands and feet. . . I never thought it would look so -real. I didn't like it."
--Planned Parenthood employee quoted in Magda Denes book "In Necessity and Sorrow" New York:Basic Books 1979
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In an interview by Mark Crutcher, former abortion clinic director Joy Davis said "Each person who worked there had a different way of dealing with it. [One] would look at the ultrasound the entire time she was in the room, but she would never look down in the pan. She would never look at the tissue being removed. She never wanted to see that. She would never take her eyes off the screen. And I had one who would never look at the screen....she would never look at the tissue and never look at the screen, she just didn't want to see anything."
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Also from the 1993 Chicago conference
"Planned Parenthood is set up so clinic workers never have to see the babies. It's set up that way because having to look at the babies bothers the workers. ...Generally there is one clinic worker in charge of the babies...I was that clinic worker. I had to look at the babies. I had to store them, I had to send them to pathology. And I was the person who had to dispose of them.....in order to maintain my sanity, I established a personal mourning ritual. I said Shiva for the babies. I said prayers for the dead. I also named the babies as I put them in a waste container."
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"It [the fetus] is a form of life...This has to be killing...The question then becomes "is this kind of killing justifiable? In my own mind, it is justifiable, but only with the informed consent of the mother"
--abortionist quoted in "Democrat and Chronicle" 7/5/92
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>From the Dallas Observer 3/18/95
Former clinic administrator Charlotte Taft, "We were hiding from the women some of the pieces of truth about abortion that were threatening....It is a kind of killing."
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From the New York Times "It is a form of killing. You're ending a life." --Abortionist Ron Fitzsimmons -------------------------------------------------------------------

>From "Abortion at Work: Ideology and Practice in a Feminist Clinic" by Wendy Simonds. New Brunswick: Rutgers University Press, 1996
Quotes from clinic employees:
"You're going from dealing with people to dealing with what most people here at the Center consider a real hurdle, to do sterile room, because you have to deal with the actual abortion tissue. And for some people, that's really hard. They can be abstractly in favor of abortion rights, but they sure don't want to see what an eighteen-week abortion looks like."
"It's just- I mean it looks like a baby. It looks like a baby. And especially if you get one that comes out, that's not piecemeal. And you know, I saw this one, and it had its fingers in its mouth...it makes me really sad that that had to happen, you know, but it doesn't change my mind. It's just hard. And it makes me just sort of stop and feel sad about it, the whole necessity of it. And also....it's very warm when it comes into the sterile room because it's been in the mother's stomach. It feels like flesh, you know..."

"It's going to be weird now because you're going to see the sono. You're going to see the heart beating- little hearts, you know- and then, all of a sudden, you're going to put his cardiac medicine in it to make it stop- to kill it. So you're going to see the exact moment when you kill the fetus. I won't kill it, the doctor will kill it...and, I mean, it might be more humane...[if] the fetuses do feel something, why not kill it, you know, fast, [rather] than rip its leg off?"

"I feel some sadness [about abortions] and I think part of the problem is that we don't talk about that...we don't talk about it as much as we think about it...somehow your pro-choice stance is compromised by saying the word "baby."...We don't allow ourselves to say or think that word...."
"At nine weeks...you start seeing fetal parts. And by the second trimester it's, you know, it's a baby, and by eighteen weeks it's definitely a baby. And by like, you know, twenty-two weeks, you go in and you watch someone do a sonogram, and you're like, "Oh my." There it is just moving, moving around. And it's really hard because I always thought of abortion in terms of just the woman, just her body."
"You're looking between the woman's legs; you're seeing, you know, what the doctor's doing. And it's what a lot of people would call kind of, I guess, gruesome- that's not really the word because- it's identifiable. I mean, when he...takes the forceps and pulls out a foot, you can see the foot, and my reaction- because I feel so strongly that women who want to have a twenty week abortion should be able to have that- but I mean when en I looks and was just like, you know, my first reaction was, you know, I was pretty horrified."
"So by it looking like a baby, you're associating it with yourself because...you used to be a baby, you used to be a fetus."
"...when you're, you know, putting a fetus's feet in over its head in a baggie, there's just this brief moment of "This could have been me," which I fundamentally believe is okay. She should have the right to choose..."
"...it looks like a baby, That's what it looks like to me. You've never seen anything else that looks like that. The only other thing you've ever seen is a baby...You can see a face and hands, and ears and eyes and, you know...feet and toes...It bothered me real bad the first time..."

"The destruction I can't deny....I wish we lived in a world where abortion didn't have to exist."
"You know, we still say "products of conception." Well, why don't we say it looks like- you know, a twenty-week fetus looks like a baby. Why can't we say that in public? Because that's what the antis say, you know."

"I think the tough part was seeing actual pieces of fetus being removed..And in the beginning, yes, I remember looking, standing behind this woman's shoulder [as she performed an early second- trimester-abortion] and thinking, "I can't do this...There's something emotionally upsetting about this..Features are discernible; you can count five fingers on a hand and five toes on a foot. You know, all the organ systems are formed. You know, you can see ears as structures, and the nose and eyes as structures...I have gotten to the point now that because I've been doing this work five months, four months, I look at it a little differently. I don't see the same things that I did. And, honestly, when I sit down to do one of these now, I am watching to be sure that I'm getting everything that I need to get. It's 'Do I have two lower extremities? Do I have two upper extremities? Is t here a spine? ...and the skull?...It does become a bit routine after a while. I don't fear it."

"

[mactbone]

Blah, blah blah.

My solution is to form a gameshow, with mothers who don't wish to carry their egg to term competing against each other for the right to an abortion. Wait, wait, we need a medical opinion - a doctor is the gameshow host, now... a puppy, everybody likes puppies! The puppy would be the mascot...

[johncmcleod]

If it heart beats, than it is living. If it's living inside a woman, is it not human? If it isn't human, than what is it? I believe abortion should be illegal but under certain circumstances a woman should be able to apply for an abortion. It would only be allowed if there was a rape, and if she became pregnant, they should look at the DNA sample, see who did it, and then see if there really was a rape or it was just her boyfriend.