In America Them that got gets, the rest pay taxes

[leftover_crack]

ahh yes. Cuba is suuuch a paradise for the workers.


Thats why since 1960 1/5th of all Cuban population have got on rubber rafts and went through shark infested waters to get to america. 4 million of them here in the US.


Paradise indeed!!

I think all these "Cuba is great place to live" people have been mislead by someone or some website.

[Adalbertus]

David Floyd,
I hope you'll never be in a situation where you need the help of others.
More specifically about your position about (not) supporting parents: You seem to forget that everyone of us needs younger people. Who wipes your a.. when you're 80 years old and cannot do it yourself? People who are at least 25 years younger than you or nobody. This is not a matter of money only. If there are no younger people, all your money doesn't help. Giving the expenses to raise children only to parents is unfair - and when there are not enough the children might say "we're only caring for our own parents". No money would help. There is no way to reward the parents when you need the help of their children.
There are also other problems in your calculation. If a hurricane destroys all someone has built in the last 10 or 20 years ... (and for Germans, and very realistic: a flood) ... is it his fault? A bleeder, who needs quite often a transfusion and gets HIV infected ... is it his fault?
You should rethink your extreme position. None of us can survive only on his/her own. We have to support each other. What we have to take care for is that there is nobody who exploits this, but this is a different problem - and indeed a problem.

On another thought: I really think that most of the stock market as it is today is a bad thing. The original idea - and which in itself is good - is that enterprises with good ideas can get money from those who have it. But that's not any more the rule which governs stock market. The ruling forces are to produce strong ups and downs in share values so that those who are smart enough can get maximum profit. Unfortunately these people have the most power. But this is detrimental as well for the enterprise itself as for national economy. The purpose of an enterprise should be to provide jobs and produce products which are needed. This is what we as individuals and as nations need. This is contradictory to an oscillating stock value which gives maximum profit. Moreover, brokers themselves are not productive. Nobody really needs selling/buying of shares. It doesn't procude food nor knowledge nor entertainment nor anything else (ok, a bit of entertainment, but not really). What we need is food, cars, houses, computers, music etc. But the focus nowadays lies on those non-productive businesses. Which I think is a really bad thing.

So, my initial suggestion would be: heavy taxes on buying/selling stock (or on the money gained this way), and tax-free dividends (I wonder if taxes on dividends are even legal: On buying a share, you are co-owner of an enterprise. Which means the money the enterprise earns is partially yours. Why should you pay a tax on money that is yours?). If I'm not mistaken this should increase the shareholder's interest in the long-term development of a company - which doesn't exist at the moment.

[Pekka]

I've always praised our system for helping the poor, sick and old. Now I'm friggin sick of it. In theory it sounds nice and all, but if it only worked like it supposed to be working.
Healthcare.. free education.. sounds good? Sure..

Few examples for our hard working in taking care of our own:
Veterans. Who is taking care of them? No one. People who give money to charity. Yeah sure they get a paycheck amount of piss, it's an insult. Maybe they get to go to a cheap vacation once in 2 years IF they are even able to. They're soon all dead, gratitude is long due.

And what about drug addicts? They are people too, and according to our system they must have treatment too. Many of them simply die in the line of waiting, others won't even get it. What a good system this is!
So it's helping selected people after all? And not all?

And my own experience. I went to social whatever it's called because I was living in home (parents house) and they had moved to the US, I lost my sponsoring and didn't have a job. No savings. Needless to say I got hungry! So I called them up and when I finally got in touch, I got service like I was Hitler and needed to be killed. So I finally had an appointment there, and just avoided the bouncer who was about to kick my ass for some reason (and for real too). Then there was this ***** who looked like she was about to kill herself tonight. Did I get my check? HELL NO! 'Do you have any property?' '... umm not really.. well.. I have a motorcycle?' 'And you don't pay rent?' 'Nope..' 'Sell stuff.. you won't be getting as long as you have big property'.. I was like WTF is this ****. I know I have a RIGHT to have that basic help but oh no.. then she said 'you can complain about this of course.. '.. yeah sure.. and what was I supposed to eat meanwhile, like few weeks? I wanted to kill her so bad. So this is the great system, that's nice to know. In order to have checks, I have to be a professor or rocket scientist with no property at all, or bs in the applications.
After that I went outside for a smoke to cool down, she had a new 'client' and it ended up in tears and yelling. A mother of 3 (accorind to her) came out mumbling out bad words and ruined day.

There are so much of these free loaders who bs a lot, and know how to beat the system, ultimately watching tv and sitting on their ass and getting so good checks it's not even worth getting a job. And that IS the reality.
I'm so pissed about it I can't even put it in words.

Then the free education. That is actually good, I like it too. It dependes where you live, the quality really really really sucks sometimes. I mean really sucks. No one really gives a damn. I can count the universitys with my fingers. So you can't really choose where do you want to go, or if you are lucky, everything clicks and you like the place and get to study what you want. Maybe.
Sure it's nice that every kid gets equal chance.. but is it really equal since the qualities varies SO much? It was just in the news so no arguing there.

Plus we haven't really seen the true effects of this system. We will in few years when there are large numbers of people retiring (lots of kids after the war).
And it looks like a bomb to the system.

And what about the quality of health stuff? Supposed to be good in most places.. but that again dependes where you live. Again I have my own experience. Some years ago I was active hockey player. I broke few ribs, I went to a doctor.. She said it was nothing. She spent maybe 1 minute with me. I was saying please Oh please take me to x-ray , it really hurts. Nope.. No way. Your time is OVER. I was not sure about it, so I went to a private doc, paid big bucks and yep... broken ribs 'it's good you came, if you continued playing, this could of been really really dangerous for example ribs breaking lungs'. So there we have. ****ty doctors are many. It doesn't cost much.. but hey I'm ready to pay for it if quality is guaranteed. Every time I go to my local place the same doctor wanders in the hall like a Zombie because he's been working for 18h straight, but they can't pay for another doctor. Real Nice.

Personally? I have nothing BUT bad experiences about these free stuff. And lots of people get just the goods from it. People have learned it, I bet it's easy if you don't have any moral in you.

Are there any downsides to this wonderfull system? Hell yes! The taxes are so high, that you can't succeed economically really. After my folks went to US , they started pissing money out of everywhere just working.
And not in local standards, in our finnish standards. They pay taxes there, not a problem.
Dog eat dog.

[Pekka]

After long list of ranting my point is the system is WEAK! People bs so much in here, it's almost unreal. Why not? It's easy and then you don't have to do anything but collect the money YOU earn.

[Pekka]

And to my finnish comrades.. Enjoy healthcare and the bad service you get, I hope you get to study what you really want to, and after you have worked for 40 years straight, I hope you have paid for loans for the house and the small car. If you have two small cars, then you are truly succesfull. And maybe you get $600 pension per month and you can start enjoying. Maybe. If you're lucky that is. Just don't think about what you've could of done with your life and with your full potential.
And yes I'm bitter. I will leave this shinking ship.

[Adalbertus]

Pekka, something I've seen in France (unfortunately not in Germany) is that people really get to see what they have to pay for health care. I've got no problem for paying for those who have a worse health than I have, but I don't like inefficiency, too, which is the main problem of public services. I've not yet found the key how to make public something efficient, but I really would like to. We have to be social, but not in a way that the bold exploit the honest (which is usually the case - if in a free economy or in a public health care).

[Pekka]

Yep.. I think it's good to take care of the sick, but that should include everyone then.
And the hard reality is that the bold exploit the honest.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Adalbertus
On another thought: I really think that most of the stock market as it is today is a bad thing. The original idea - and which in itself is good - is that enterprises with good ideas can get money from those who have it.

Raising finance is one aspect, another is that you can more easily sell your share of a company.

Private company shareholders can not as easily sell shares as Public company shareholders.

But that's not any more the rule which governs stock market. The ruling forces are to produce strong ups and downs in share values so that those who are smart enough can get maximum profit.

If you are making money merely on the ups and downs, you are just as likely to win as to lose. To beat the market someone else must lose to it. And its pot luck who it is. It is thus not the main purpose of the market, anymore than foreign exchanges are centres designed to make profit on currency fluctuation. It happens, but it is not the purpose around which things are dictated.


When most people buy shares, they are looking usually looking for capital growth or dividends. Strong ups and downs are not what are sort. The fluctuations in share price is due to the perceived risks and returns of a company. I don't see how you think that even if stock brokers wanted ups and downs that they would be able to make ups and downs. If it was as easy as that then we could all do it!

So, my initial suggestion would be: heavy taxes on buying/selling stock (or on the money gained this way),

I disagree, gains on shares should be taxed at the same rate that you tax the gain on any other commodity bought and sold for a gain.

and tax-free dividends (I wonder if taxes on dividends are even legal: On buying a share, you are co-owner of an enterprise. Which means the money the enterprise earns is partially yours. Why should you pay a tax on money that is yours?). If I'm not mistaken this should increase the shareholder's interest in the long-term development of a company - which doesn't exist at the moment.

Tax free dividends? You might aswell eliminate corporation tax aswell, they are effectively the same thing.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by leftover_crack
ahh yes. Cuba is suuuch a paradise for the workers.

Thats why since 1960 1/5th of all Cuban population have got on rubber rafts and went through shark infested waters to get to america.

Yes, and 1/5 of all Mexicans have crossed through the desert, risking death by dehydration, snake bite, and crazy ranchers to come to the US. The richest country in the world is going to suck workers from any neighboring poor country. We suck workers from rich countries. Hell, our economy couldn't function if we didn't suck the labor and intellectuals of the world here.

That Cubans have emigrated enmasse to the US says nothing about Cuba. 1/3rd of Puerto Ricans live in the US. What does that say about US colonial policies?

[Imran Siddiqui]

If his system ever comes to pass, communism will follow shortly afterward.

You mean like the Communists in Germany... After Hitler, us.

And no, I'm not comparing you, Floyd, to Hitler. Well not entirely anyway .

[David Floyd]

che,

But when we move into a socialist society, that right will become a privelege, and will only be allowed so long as it does not hinder the development of society. When it does, their property will become common property, as it was in the begining.

OK, first of all I understand your point about most current property (by which I assume you mean mainly land) being the result of theft. I agree with you, in many cases.
But what I was talking about was the natural right to property, to own one's own labor, and to me, this is a right that exists regardless of who is in power, or what economic philosophy they subscribe to.

Adalbertus,

David Floyd,
I hope you'll never be in a situation where you need the help of others.

Well, I hope not too - I believe in self sufficiency.

More specifically about your position about (not) supporting parents:

When did I ever say people should not support their parents? Please, point that out. *I* remember saying that family is part of the natural social net, and that family members should help each other.

There are also other problems in your calculation. If a hurricane destroys all someone has built in the last 10 or 20 years ... (and for Germans, and very realistic: a flood) ... is it his fault?

Certainly not, but it isn't my fault either. And reasonably, someone should not put themselves in a position where they are totally wiped out by one event - they should have savings, for example, that could help them get through hard times. It is certainly their fault if they didn't save, but a flood or someone's lack of savings is never my fault, or my responsibility.

A bleeder, who needs quite often a transfusion and gets HIV infected ... is it his fault?

No, it's the fault of the person who donated blood, of course. It's certainly not MY fault.

You should rethink your extreme position. None of us can survive only on his/her own. We have to support each other.

Which is why I support the existence of private charity and the notion of families helping each other. I don't support the notion of involuntary public charity, though.

Imran,

And no, I'm not comparing you, Floyd, to Hitler. Well not entirely anyway

Well, that's good, because my positions have entirely nothing to do with those of the Nazis

[blackice]

True, many people are inherently immoral and greedy,

That applies to the rich and famous also.

I'm not arguing that no one would be in poverty, I'm saying that I seriously doubt anyone would starve.

Why? Malnutrition slows down the ability to learn. So the cycle goes on if kids are left this way.

Right, again because the poor seem to end up being a bunch of greedy, immoral, murdering thieves.

Not only is that rude stereotyping but I seriously doubt you could prove your hate remarks.

Hmm, that sounds a bit like extortion

What helping out a fellow citizen? So you think leaving the cycle to continue and grow is the best solution? Wierd.

[David Floyd]

That applies to the rich and famous also.

Certainly. But in his example, it applies more to poor people.

Why? Malnutrition slows down the ability to learn. So the cycle goes on if kids are left this way.

I'm not talking about passing Calculus III, I'm talking about not starving. You can get a job at Wendy's without advanced math.

Not only is that rude stereotyping but I seriously doubt you could prove your hate remarks.

The proof lies in their actions. If a group of poor people get together to rob a smaller group of well off people of their property, and in some cases, their life and liberty, then those poor people are certainly greedy, immoral, murdering thieves.

What helping out a fellow citizen? So you think leaving the cycle to continue and grow is the best solution? Wierd.

Well, a bunch of people saying that unless a group of other people give them a percentage of their money, they'll just take all of it, sounds very much like extortion to me. Or maybe I'm using the wrong word - whatever, it's a criminal act.

[blackice]

[q]Certainly. But in his example, it applies more to poor people['q]

I seriously doubt that.

I'm not talking about passing Calculus III, I'm talking about not starving. You can get a job at Wendy's without advanced math.

1. Ever feed a family on a wendy's pay?
2. If you do not feed the kids thye end up on a wendy's payroll
3. Do you think 2-14 year-old kids should work at wendy's?

The proof lies in their actions.

Owners of banks and corporations do that too, rich people rob and kill too. Your hatred of poor people is pathetic.

Well, a bunch of people saying that unless.

Banks do it everyday so do other business owners. How would you solve the problem kill them? See because if you ignore them the problem recycles itself and multiplies. Look at history as to what happens then.

[David Floyd]

1. Ever feed a family on a wendy's pay?

No, but if you can't afford a family on Wendy's pay you have three obvious alternatives: don't have a family, work another job, your wife gets a job.

2. If you do not feed the kids thye end up on a wendy's payroll

If you can't bring your kids up with the financial resources you have, don't have kids

3. Do you think 2-14 year-old kids should work at wendy's?

I don't think they should, but I think that if, say, a 12 year old has the ability to work and meets Wendys' requirements he should not be legally prevented from working.

Owners of banks and corporations do that too,

The difference is you can opt out of banks, and you don't have to purchase goods from corporations you don't like. But I never said the poor had a monopoly on "evilness".

rich people rob and kill too. Your hatred of poor people is pathetic.

I don't hate the poor. I don't hate anyone. I'm simply very much against those who would steal in order to better themselves.

Banks do it everyday so do other business owners.

You don't have to use a bank, and can you be more specific when you refer to businesses?