People of the New World can't differanciate when it comes to Europe.

[Arrian]

Paiktis, what the hell are you talking about? Do you take offense when people assign some blame to Vichy France or other groups that collaborated with the Nazis, or are you just chafing at the "Europe has a history of anti-semitism" line? Sorry, but Europe (and the United States) DOES have a history of anti-semitism. Sorry if that fact upsets you.

Having said that, the fact that European anti-semitism is historical fact does not make a citizen of any given European nation in 2002, or any other year, a Nazi by default. And I sincerely doubt anyone said that.

-Arrian

EDIT: wow, so your little rant was really all about the Sum of All Fears? A ****ty movie (I assume) based on a book which, though undoubtedly much better, was also not very good? Damn.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Arrian
Paiktis, what the hell are you talking about? Do you take offense when people assign some blame to Vichy France or other groups that collaborated with the Nazis, or are you just chafing at the "Europe has a history of anti-semetism" line? Sorry, but Europe (and the United States) DOES have a history of anti-semetism. Sorry if that fact upsets you.

Having said that, the fact that European anti-semetism is historical fact does not make a citizen of any given European nation in 2002, or any other year, a Nazi by default. And I sincerely doubt anyone said that.

-Arrian

Wasn't France occupied?

Did the French people elected a president that said kill jews or was it because the nazi scums had occupied the country and installed a pupet regime?

how can you associate let alone equate (although you luckily dont) the monstrocity of hitler germany and the nazis with an occupied by them country is beyond me.

One.

And two. You again focus on Jews whereas the victims of the Nazi scums were people ALL across the board.

[Bereta_Eder]

if the US or Britain were occupied I can guarantee you that there wouldn't be a jewish bone to speak of right now.

And jews were but a fraction of the people massacred by the nazi germans.

[Arrian]

Damnit, Paiktis, the majority of those killed in the camps were Jews, so it's easy to fall into just referring to the victims as Jews. For your benifit, victims of the Holocaust will hereinafter be referred to as "victims." I do tend to seperate out the millions of Russian PoW's who the Nazis "forgot" to feed. That was an atrocity all to itself. When I use the term "Holocaust" I mean the death camps and shooting squads (Einstatzgrouppen?).

Ok, let's talk about Vichy. Vichy France was not occupied. It was the portion of France that was left under French control (though the Germans could have taken that away had they chosen to do so). So sure, much of what the French did was done under duress, but there was very little hesitation when it came to handing over victims to the Nazis. The Vichy French police actively rounded them up and turned 'em over. That puts them in the same proverbial ballpark as the Gestapo. Sorry.

-Arrian

[Bereta_Eder]

That puts them in the same proverbial ballpark as the Gestapo.


Not in a thousand years.

1) they were under threat of occupation and they wouldn't have elected a man that would do that. Germans did. Leagues apart.

2) UK and US would have done this and more in the same situation.

[Arrian]

What?

[Bereta_Eder]

i edited for clarification.

[DinoDoc]

Zorba chooses to see some nobility in collaberation with the Nazis.

[Bereta_Eder]

what a stupid remark. you're just proving what I said about americans.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by paiktis22
what an ass remark.

I think its quite on point considering your "rabid" defense of Vichy France.

PS I'm faster than you!

[Bereta_Eder]

you fail to understand what I say on purpose.

PS true

[Bereta_Eder]

Even further clarifiaction because the atlantic seems to be light years wide, you can't equate or put similar blame to a country under threat of occupation by nazi germany and the nazi scums themselves.


your anti-french feelings are clouding your judgement on who the real and only ones scumbags of modern european history were: namely the nazi germans. without them nothing would have happened.


you can argue about what drove germany into going to war and we can agree on some, but nazi germans were the only ones who are to blame for the relentless massacre of innocents. (which as very correectly you agreed were not only jews)

[Arrian]

Paiktis,

I understand that Vichy France was under duress - the threat of occupation by the Germans. Thus, they aren't as bad as the Nazis. The Vichy French elements (police force, upper levels of government) that actively collaborated in rounding up victims and sending them to Germany, while not being as evil as the Nazis, are IMO in the same ballpark. Duress lessens the blame, but it does no absolve.

A more interesting example would be Finland, or to an extent, Sweden. Both were under various forms of duress and the help they gave the Germans was on a different level than that of Vichy France.

As to how Britain or the US would have responded to defeat by Nazi Germany, you may or may not be correct. I don't know. I do know there were a range of reactions across Europe to that situation, from Vichy France to Holland to Denmark to Hungary to the area later known as Yugoslavia.

[Bereta_Eder]

That being said and screwed to your (and anyone else's) brain of course the collaborators share guilt. and big buckloads of it. and should be held responsible ALONGSIDE the nazis.

why in Denmark they didnt give in jews for example?

i'm not defending france but never forget that the nazi scums were #1 responsible for the massacres of peoples.

[Bereta_Eder]

crossposting.

Finland and Sweden too of course.
and about yugoslavia it is interesting to know what has happened there and particularly in croatia. helps you understand things in the present too (since those things of old were affecting the recent past, or made by some people have an effect on recent past).