People of the New World can't differanciate when it comes to Europe.

[Ned]

Rogan, since you are French, why, in your opinion, did France declare war on Germany?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
Don't you realize that these two statements are contradictory?

Um, no, I don't. Please explain how they are contradictory, because they aren't.

I am not saying that the US was to blame for Hitler ( ) --

1. Nobody accused you of saying that. You just seem to imply the U.S. should have been there sooner, to which I answer, why?
2. That's good, because to say so would be ludicrous, given the French and British roles in creating Hitler.

just that it is not fair to blame the rest of Europe (or even all of Germany). Every country was at fault to some degree, and none were entirely to blame.

Which is exactly what most of us have been saying in response to Patycakes' silly troll...

[Bereta_Eder]

Not at all. You are indeed unable to differantiate between Nazi Germany and Europe. As proven amptly in this thread.

[Boris Godunov]

How is acknowledging that other European countries helped the Nazis equal to saying there is no difference? Nobody has said such a thing.

[ckweb]

Originally posted by paiktis22
Why is the discussion centered around Jews like they were the only ones suffering?

You are right that the Jews are so singularly associated with the Holocaust (in all parts of the world not just the "New World") that obscures the sufferings of a great many other races and ethnic groups that are also victims of the Holocaust. Even so, I'm sure you can answer your own question about why the discussion centers on the Jews. In case you can't, they were obviously the most numerous of the victims. Just look at the WTC collapse, everybody talks as if only Americans lost their lives. Its the same type of deal.

[Kaak]

It's so true especially for Germany.

Not true, americans can always tell germans apart from the rest of the europeans. They are the ones with the mismatched socks...

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Chris 62
Silly one Paiktis.

Vichy even had a nice little force called the Milice, to help round up those damn jews.

All the countries Hitler allied with helped, and most of the occupied nations as well (Denmark is a notable exception, the Danes managed to save Jews with Sweden's help).

You can yell from the rooftops that it was only the Nazis, but they had LOTS of help.

From what I know, Denmark saved their Jews - which wasn't too hard as there were a little of them - but was completely unwilling to do anything for Jews from other countries.

Boris, We discussed Jedwabne case before. There is a difference between a situation in which a state is involved into murdering some people, and a situation in which some band kills someone - notabene
under German orders. In first situation, the country and the nation it represents has something to do with it, and in the second situation the state haven't got anything to do with it., though of course that some Poles were willing to fulfill German orders is a sad thing.

[Hueij]

While Hitler clearly was a racist and labeled the Jews "untermenschen," he also denounced the Jews as being Socialists and Communists. After the attack on the Soviet Union, the rounding up of subversives in Europe may just as much sense as rounding up of the Japanese did in United States.

There is a "small" difference. The Japanese were never labeled beforehand as "Uentermenschen" that ultimately had to be destroyed. And Communists, especially Slavs (another inferior race) didn't live long too after being rounded up...

[Ned]

Hueij, I agree that this is a major distinction. But did anyone "really" know that Hitler fully intended to liquidate all who were labeled untermenshen? I just suggest that the average European did not know and thus may have collaborated with the Nazi's not knowing that the Jews and Gypsies they were handing over were going to be killed.

Aldabertus's post above is consistent with my discussions with Germans from WWII. They consistently deny knowledge of the Holocaust even while they knew the Jews were destined for concentration camps.

Do people from Holland state the contrary? Do they state knew the fate of the Jews even while the round up was ongoing?

While there were some Americans who resisted the incarceration of the Japanese, most Americans cooperated and believed the incarceration was acceptable given the security threat. This attitude would have been dramatically different if instead of mere incarceration, they were aware of any plan to kill the Japanese.

Compare the complete outrage of the world and the American people when news of the bombing of Dresden leaked out through Sweden. (British terror bombing had been ongoing since 1942, but the public in the US and Britain were never informed.) This public outrage forced Churchill to call off is dog, Bomber Harris.

I have seen the video of Truman's explanation of the use the atom bomb. He carefully explains that the attack was on a military-industrial complex, and that it was intended to reduce the enemy's capacity to fight.

Truman did not tell the American people the truth.

It is therefore clear that the Allies were able to commit wholesale atrocities against Germany and Japan throughout the war only because of a news blackout. I suggest Hitler did the same with his own atrocities.

[mactbone]

Another reason why Jews are concentrated on as opposed to other oppressed people from the time (other than just sheer numbers) was the education and literacy of those people. Many Jews wrote about their experiences which has allowed us to study them and as far as I know, all the truly famous books described from a victim's viewpoint were written by Jews.

[Heresson]

[quote]
The revelations contained in Prof. Jan Gross' new book Sasiedzi [Neighbors] have forced Polish society to reassess the way in which Poles confronted the Shoah. According to Prof. Gross' research, it was local Poles that were responsible for a horrific slaughter in the town of Jedwabne, not German occupation forces.[quote]

That's not true according to researches; about 30 Poles (some of Jedwabne, some of other places)
were brought by Germans, and Germans were the initiators of this event which is sure; not quite sure is,
however, if they accompanied the event to the end.
A German order let out by local German occupation authorities was to get rid of Jews by local hands. I don't
think its hard to find several robbers that wouldn't have anything against killing people for money.

In July 1941, in an orgy of bloodletting and looting, some 1,600 Jews lost their lives

1600 is a number that used to live in Jedwabne and nearby before the war; most of them have escaped
or were brought out by Germans earlier; the number according to exhumation is 330-440.
Again I emphasise; I consider it a tragedy. But as the state or any organisation wasn't involved,
and the thing wouldn't be possible without German occupation and German organisation, I don't think of
it as a Polish fault. Blaming Poland for this situation is like blaming America for Talibs because of mr Walker
or generally blaming f.e. France for some robbery made by a guy of French descent in some other country;
Poland opposed against what Germans were doing with Jews; the region where it happened was not only occupied,
but also anected by Germany. The ones that did that proved that they were citizens of the German Reich, not
Poland.

Poles have constantly perpetuated the notion that theirs was a country without quislings. In other words, unlike the rest of German occupied or dominated Europe, the Germans were unable to find local fascists or traitors to do their bidding. Certainly when compared to the record of other countries such as France, Norway, or the Netherlands, to say nothing of Croatia, Slovakia, Hungary or Romania, this perception of Poland's experience was not entirely without foundation.

Again I emphasise that leader of Polish fascist, jan Mosdorf, was killed in concentration camp for helping
the Jews.

Polish society and the Jews: A mixed record
The fact is that Poland's war-time record was a mixed one. On the one hand, it is now widely acknowledged that the dangers in Poland in rescuing Jews were far greater than in most other places in Europe (there was a death penalty that even extended to the rescuers' immediate family and sometimes their neighbors as well) and that the number of rescuers there was far greater than had been estimated originally - the rescue of even one person often required a whole chain of conspirators. It is also recognized by all serious historians that there is no basis whatsoever for the oft-heard charge that the Germans elected to establish death camps in Poland because they believed that Poles would acquiesce to them or even aid in the destruction.

I doubt that people know about that.

Gazeta Wyborcza that revealed that in the Warsaw Uprising in 1944 [not to be confused with the Ghetto Uprising of 1943] certain elements of the Armja Krajowa [AK - Home Army] murdered Jews. Those revelations produced a storm of controversy and accusations against the reporter, Michal Cichy, who was subjected to a torrent of abuse and even accused of being a closet Jew.

AK was killing Poles recognised as German or Soviet collaborants - some of them were Jews
amongst whom communist views were widely spreaded.

ardinal Glemp, the country's Roman Catholic primate, who has a long record of vitriolic antipathy toward Jews,

If that means what I think it means it's not true... I have never heard a single word of his against the Jews.
I read the most anti-catholic papers here and I assure You that if He said something they would report it.

Others claim that while Poles may have been responsible for some of the deaths, the incident must be looked at in light of the Jews' behavior during the Soviet occupation from September 1939 until June 1941 and ascribe a '*** for tat' quality to the killings. In this spirit Father Orlowski called for Jews to apologize to Poles for the wrong- doings the priest alleges were committed by the Jewish citizens of Jedwabne during the period of Soviet occupation.

Even the Jews in the case admit that some of local Jewish population upported Soviets and
caused death of Polish activities there; that's no excuse though.

The coincidence of the Jedwabne revelations and that of the fierce debate on the question of re-privitization is an ironic coincidence

No-one gets anything back, undependantly from his nationality. The case of reprivatisation was not settled
and probably never will.

[Ned]

Heresson, Were the Polish people generally aware that the Jews that were rounded up and handed over the Nazi's were slated for certain death? The reason I ask is that I am not certain that even the Jews knew their fate when they boarded trains to the camps.

[Chris 62]

Originally posted by Ned
Rogan, since you are French, why, in your opinion, did France declare war on Germany?

He's a Scotsman...

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Ned
Heresson, Were the Polish people generally aware that the Jews that were rounded up and handed over the Nazi's were slated for certain death? The reason I ask is that I am not certain that even the Jews knew their fate when they boarded trains to the camps.

There are different relations. Sometimes I hear that someone was shouting that they're going to be gased but I doubt that 'cos how could they know what techniques would Germans use? I think that most surmised that if Jews being taken from the ghettos were going to be murdered. I think that most of people thought like one whose words I read; "today -them tomorrow us" (I think these may be the words of Zofia Na?kowska) but I heard similar opinions with addition that unlike Jews, they will fight for their life.

[Ned]

The reason I ask the question, Chris, is that according to the principles of a "just" war, a declaration should only be made if the party declaring war has a high likelihood of winning it. Perhaps this is only hindsight talking, but in retrospect, France's declaration of war was ludicrous.