This pisses me off. People who take joy in 9-11

[red_jon]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
"I feel lives hold equal weight regardless of nationality. Therefore I believe the deaths of innocent civilians in Afghanistan itself afterwards was a greater tragedy as more died. Just my opinion"

Yes, but nobody in the US is celebrating the lives of innocents lost in Afghanistan.

I'd say there are a lot of t-shirts and bumper stickers which disagree, which seem to delight in the deaths of Afghanis.

[Dauphin]

For example

[Inverse Icarus]

i'm not going to say innocent people dont die when america attacks. they do.

but we dont outright go to attack the innocent. we have military intentions in all our attacks. what those f*cking fundies did was directed at people that most likely had nothing to do with any of the problems in the region.

granted, they also hit the pentagon. that attack (although still trecherous) would have been more "acceptable" (a loose use of the term) than a direct attack at the citizens.

my dad didn't give 2 sh*ts about anything anyone could use to justify the attacks. he just wanted to goto work and make money to support his family. and they killed him. a civilian. a man doing his job. dilebrately. with malice. for so reason other than to create a scene for the media.

well i'll give a mighty f*ck you to anyone who even TRIES to justify the WTC attack. they are the lowest scum of the earth.

no, i correct myself. those who ACTUALLY SUPPORT THEM AFTER THE FACT are the lowest scum of the earth. I'd say "bomb the meeting" if i didn't think that isnt enough of a punishment for the people.

[red_jon]

Originally posted by UberKruX
i'm not going to say innocent people dont die when america attacks. they do.

but we dont outright go to attack the innocent.

I didn't say that. I was just saying that those civilians dying in the aftermath was an even greater tragedy.

[Inverse Icarus]

couldn't this be construed as harboring terrorists?

do we need to do some routine bombing runs over the UK?

[Zulu Elephant]

If I was going to try to see the point of view of the people at this conference, I would mention that there were a not insignificant amount of american posters right here at apolyton who posted "Nuke all the sand ******s" and comments like that on the evening of Sept 11th.

My point being that, if an individual feels that some terrible crime has been exacted on their country, it is entirely possible for that person to suspend rational thought and advocate a completely dissproportionate response.


Can I also mention that I am in no way comparing the deliberate attacks against civilians on september the 11th, with the accidental, "collateral" (sp?) deaths of various western campaigns in the middle east - I am simply dealing with the feeling or perception that some terrible tragedy has befallen your nation due to a group of people or a nation.

[Inverse Icarus]

Originally posted by red_jon


I didn't say that. I was just saying that those civilians dying in the aftermath was an even greater tragedy.

noted, but i wasn't directly addressing you. i'm just replying to the initial thread posts.

sorry for any confusion.

[red_jon]

Ah, that's ok then. No-one shall dispute me!

[Faeelin]

Originally posted by red_jon


I'd say there are a lot of t-shirts and bumper stickers which disagree, which seem to delight in the deaths of Afghanis.

No, those are delighting in the death of the taliban.

It's a bit like saying because you hate israel, you hate jews.

[Inverse Icarus]

Originally posted by Zulu Elephant
If I was going to try to see the point of view of the people at this conference, I would mention that there were a not insignificant amount of american poster right here at apolyton who posted "Nuke all the sand ******s" and comments like that.

My point being that, if an individual feels that some terrible crime has been exacted on their country, it is entirely possible for that person to suspend rational thought and advocate a completely dissproportionate response.


Can I also mention that I am in no way comparing the deliberate attacks against civilians on september the 11th, with the accidental, "collateral" (sp?) deaths of various western campaigns in the middle east - I am simply dealing with the feeling or perception that some terrible tragedy has befallen your nation due to a group of people or a nation.

noted as well.

but the american response was made long after muslim extremists made similar statements.

was it Saddam or OBL that said "I will make no difference between an American Civilian and an member of the armed forces" (probably a misquote).

sure, many civilians in america may be all gung-ho about "nuking all the sand ******s" (i admit i was immediately afterwards, my paki-american friend slapped some sense into me), but you dont see someone like bill gates financing a nuclear strike against them. and there's really no public support for it (i think), no matter what people say.

I wonder, if you started a fund for nuking the sand ******s if people would donate. Would be an interesting exercise.

anyway, that always happens during a war. remember the american ww2 propaganda posters? "the only good jap is a dead jap?" it's the same basic concept, only we have a little more control over ourselves.

[Zulu Elephant]

noted as well.

but the american response was made long after muslim extremists made similar statements.

was it Saddam or OBL that said "I will make no difference between an American Civilian and an member of the armed forces" (probably a misquote).

sure, many civilians in america may be all gung-ho about "nuking all the sand ******s" (i admit i was immediately afterwards, my paki-american friend slapped some sense into me), but you dont see someone like bill gates financing a nuclear strike against them. and there's really no public support for it (i think), no matter what people say.

I wonder, if you started a fund for nuking the sand ******s if people would donate. Would be an interesting exercise.

anyway, that always happens during a war. remember the american ww2 propaganda posters? "the only good jap is a dead jap?" it's the same basic concept, only we have a little more control over ourselves.

Firstly, can I thankyou for such a well thought through and rational response. Their are many here who would have dismissed me as some sort of "Fundamentalist Sympathiser" or "Apologist" for the comments I made.

My only response would be to reiterate the fact that my point was concentrating on the perception of a terrible, unjust attack.

Yes, the attack on civilians in the world trade centre cannot be justified but how would we feel if the attacks had only been directed against military targets (as western attacks are) such as the Pentagon? I am sure that there would still be a number of american or western people willing to advocate a "nuke all the sand ******s" policy even if that had been the case - these westerners would be be no better or worst than the people gathering at this conference.

[Hueij]

Originally posted by Faeelin


That's right! If he dislikes people celebrating 9/11, he's a fascist!

Hm, the thread took another turn, so just this... You know what political party this guy is a member of?

[Sikander]

Originally posted by red_jon


I didn't say that. I was just saying that those civilians dying in the aftermath was an even greater tragedy.

Can you quantify or qualify this comment, or are you from the Mobius school of half-assed commentary where accidental deaths are to be prosecuted to a greater extent than murders, even though they have less of a negative psychological effect on the survivors?

IMO the net effect of the coalition efforts in Afghanistan over the last year has been to save lives. Certainly the peoples in the North have been delivered from the murderous clutches of the Taliban. In Kabul alone about 3 people a day were being murdered by the Taliban, which adds up to over 1000 a year. Add in those being killed in Herat and in the north proper and that is already equal to the number killed in the U.S. on 9/11. Then there are those who would have starved to death due to Taliban hostility / economic incompetence, which were estimated to be in the tens to hundreds of thousands when left wingers thought that they could blame the U.S. for their deaths anyway.

The coalition should be justly proud of their efforts in the past year. They have served both justice and humanity through the sacrifices and bravery of the men and women on the ground, whether they were military or humanitarian personnel. They have not only routed a group which was threatening a huge swath of the globe with attacks on innocent civilians, but they have given the people of Afghanistan an opportunity to improve their lives appreciably. This has not been a brutal response, and those who say it has been seem to be getting their news directly from the Taliban.

[The Pioneer]

Ok, the attacks in Afghanistan freed the people of Afghanistan and they seem to be better off now than with the Taliban regime. It came years too late, the international community should have done something long before we came to September 11. I also have a favourable outlook on ousting Houssein, with an int'l mandate that is.

What I am wondering though is why the US and the int'l community didn't help prevent the genocide in Rwanda, the mass killings in Yugoslavia, East Timor, the injustices of Mugabee in Zibawbe (sp?), civil war in Ivory Cosat and innumerous other places where genocide, torture, terror, famine have wiped off thousands after thousands of innocent civilians caught in the middle of situation they couldn't control nor avoid!

As for the people even the few (mostly fanatics) that take joy in the killing of innocent civilians I say down with them. Put 'em in a hole so deep that they would never see sunlight again and let hem rot.

So long...

[Inverse Icarus]

half the world tells us to leave them to their own business and the other half tells us to go halfway around the world to do something about it.



and both sides get pissed at us for one reason or another.