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  • #76
    Originally posted by Lord Merciless


    The 'cause' is the keyword here. A losing cause will not attract the masses. A movement of few hardcores is hardly threatening, but mass movements are.

    Have you ever heard of "carrot and stick" approach? That's what the US is doing right now or at least trying to do. Look at Afghanistan, we first bombed the hardcore US haters out of power, and next we try to buy off the skeptical majority with candies. Remember, we also used the same approach on Germany and Japan.


    I think the Chinese Boxer Rebellion of a century ago provided an interesting parallel to the current Islamic fundamentalism:
    - China suffered humiliations at hands of Western powers.
    - The tradition Chinese culture reacted to the Western cultural influences.
    - Religion provided motivation and fanaticism.
    - Hardcore Boxers were suicidal warriors.

    In the end, the Boxers were ruthlessly crushed by the foreign powers. Hundred thousands of Chinese were murdered by foreigners, and China suffered even more indignity. By your logic, the hate among Chinese would swell even higher and far more Boxers would arise to attack foreigners. Well, the reality couldn't be more different. The Boxer movement vanished without a trace(except in some folklores), the intelletuals were chastizing the very traditions the Boxers were trying to protect, the government insituted social and political reforms unthinkable before the rebellion, and ordinary Chinese recognized the need to reform their own society.

    It's about time that Islamic nations follow a similar footsteps: get out of the middle age and embrace the modern age.
    Then why has Israel's heavy handedness caused more Palestinians to become terrorist, and the violence to escalate?
    One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.

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    • #77
      I don't know if the conditions of the Chinese improved or got worse after the supression of the rebellion, but I would guess that the average man must have been better off.

      If they were worse off, and more supressed, then I cannot understand why more people would not be willing to fight for freedom.
      One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
        Then why has Israel's heavy handedness caused more Palestinians to become terrorist, and the violence to escalate?
        Then how do you explain the fact that suicide bombings have almost stopped since the Israel gave Arafat and Hamas some sound thrashings?

        The whole Israel suicide bombing event is another prime example of why we should NEVER appease to anyone who INITIATED the violence. If the Israelis actually yielded because of the suicide bombings, Palestinian politicians(yes, the politicians) and other zealots will regard the suicide bombings as means to further their political goals in the future. That's a rather frightening future, isn't it?

        Fortunately, Sharon stopped those cold-blooded politicians cold. Now these guys, led by Arafat, realize they are in a worse situation before the bombing sprees and will hopefully think of some less violent alternatives.

        Finally, my take on Israel and Palestinian issue is that the Palestinians do have the right to resist, but their means of resisting are wrong. Their political leadership should bear the responsibility for misleading their own people.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
          I don't know if the conditions of the Chinese improved or got worse after the supression of the rebellion, but I would guess that the average man must have been better off.

          If they were worse off, and more supressed, then I cannot understand why more people would not be willing to fight for freedom.
          Chinese economic and political situations got far worse after the Boxer Rebellion. They had to pay an indemnity 10 times their national incomes, cede territories, and yield many sovereign rights to the Imperialist powers. Signs, such as "Chinese and Dogs not allowed in", are errected in throughout in China where foreigners are present. Have the Muslims ever suffered humiliations like this in their own countries?

          But the painful lesson also taught Chinese people that they could not gain respect and past glories by resorting to fanaticism and primitive violence. The Chinese people realized that in order to compete, they must embrace the Western culture and follow its footsteps. Beginning in 1901, China went on a modernization streak that has not even been finished as of today.

          You see, the hate and humiliations are not the ultimate motivation for violent political movements, but the probability of success is.

          Hopefully, we can give Al-Qaeda and like-minded a thorough thrashing that Muslims will drop them just as fast as the Chinese dropped the Boxers.

          Comment


          • #80
            Stefu brought up a good point in the conspiracy theories- even if Bush were evil enough to sacrifice 3,000 lives and the American economy, how could it possibly be worth the risk? It wouldn't be hard to be caught- all it would take would be one ethical person to find out about it and rat, and given the magnitude of the atrocity it seems very likely one person would do it. More over, if he got caught, he would be disgraces as the worst president in US history and go to prison for the rest of his life. It just doesn't make sense that Bush would do it. Also, you might not like Bush, but I see little evidence he is evil enough to actively endorse so many getting killed. Throw in the Saudis on the planes that were captured, the cell phones complaining about the captured, the captured diaries of the men instructing about the terrorist acts, the in-court confession of Moussaoui, that Moslem terrorists had already tried to blow up the WTC before- claims that there was administration involvement in the killing are just absurd.
            "I'm moving to the Left" - Lancer

            "I imagine the neighbors on your right are estatic." - Slowwhand

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            • #81
              Also throw in the videos of Osama bin Laden actually watching the attacks, knowing the number that were to occur, expressing hope that the towers would partially collapse after the strikes. These conspiracy ideas are ridiculous. You have to believe that the US government was actively working with al qaeda and the taliban. So what was the motive for them to work with the government, knowing that the feds plan was to come after them? I suppose you don't believe in Palestinian suicide bombers either.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by kcsaff
                Also throw in the videos of Osama bin Laden actually watching the attacks, knowing the number that were to occur, expressing hope that the towers would partially collapse after the strikes. These conspiracy ideas are ridiculous. You have to believe that the US government was actively working with al qaeda and the taliban. So what was the motive for them to work with the government, knowing that the feds plan was to come after them? I suppose you don't believe in Palestinian suicide bombers either.
                Umm, I was under the impression that it was common knowledge that the US government has worked with the Taliban in the past.

                And I think Osama Bin Laden's incentive would be money. To his followers they would believe they are doing it for Allah.

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                • #83
                  I thought that you didn't believe that Al Qaeda did it rj.
                  I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                  For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
                    Stefu brought up a good point in the conspiracy theories- even if Bush were evil enough to sacrifice 3,000 lives and the American economy, how could it possibly be worth the risk? It wouldn't be hard to be caught- all it would take would be one ethical person to find out about it and rat, and given the magnitude of the atrocity it seems very likely one person would do it. More over, if he got caught, he would be disgraces as the worst president in US history and go to prison for the rest of his life. It just doesn't make sense that Bush would do it. Also, you might not like Bush, but I see little evidence he is evil enough to actively endorse so many getting killed. Throw in the Saudis on the planes that were captured, the cell phones complaining about the captured, the captured diaries of the men instructing about the terrorist acts, the in-court confession of Moussaoui, that Moslem terrorists had already tried to blow up the WTC before- claims that there was administration involvement in the killing are just absurd.
                    Bush wouldn't have organised it - the administration would have. A large number of them have alreadyt worked for the President (Bush's father) and so would be in the best possible position to pull something like this off.

                    And the risk isn't too great- the act could be as sloppy as they like - the tragedy is so highly emotive people can't question it on a large scale.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by DinoDoc
                      I thought that you didn't believe that Al Qaeda did it rj.
                      I don;t believe any explantion at the moment - I'm playing devil's advocate on poly. I'm not convinced as to who organised it.

                      I was implying that the administration paid AL Qaeda to do it and allowed the terrorists passage.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by red_jon
                        And I think Osama Bin Laden's incentive would be money.


                        He comes from one of the richest families in the world. He had all the money anybody could ever need... the only thing he needs money for now is to carry on his fight (assuming he is still alive)... and he is getting that from people who believe in his cause. Money is NOT one of OBL's motives... try again...
                        Keep on Civin'
                        RIP rah, Tony Bogey & Baron O

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by red_jon
                          I don;t believe any explantion at the moment
                          Video tapped confessions combined with similar attempts aren't enough to convince you?
                          I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                          For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Ming




                            He comes from one of the richest families in the world. He had all the money anybody could ever need... the only thing he needs money for now is to carry on his fight (assuming he is still alive)... and he is getting that from people who believe in his cause. Money is NOT one of OBL's motives... try again...

                            OK, how about protection? I'm not Osama so I can't say what his incentive would be, but I don't think the man is incorruptible.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by DinoDoc
                              Video tapped confessions combined with similar attempts aren't enough to convince you?
                              Actually, no. It's hardly impossible for a government to organise these.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by red_jon
                                Actually, no. It's hardly impossible for a government to organise these.
                                Yes but it's even easier for a terrorist group to organize those.
                                I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                                For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

                                Comment

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