Should Israel Have Been in Europe Instead

[Bereta_Eder]

about the albanians.

yeah some are descendants from the illyrians.

when under ottoman occupation they were very eager to change their religion to muslim.

but albania has actually 2 "races" which hate eachohter as well. it also has the large greek minority (this is orthodox). it is not a very unified country.

kosovar albanians i think are albanians themselves. under communism it didnt matter what you believed in which god so there was no problem.


when the west decided to get rid of milosevic they armed the kosovar albanians to perform terrorism, milosevic clumped down and what happened happened.


the echange of populations is/was a very widespread practise in the past.

whoever conquered a part of the land he made the other ethnicities flee and vice versa.

that was started between the greeks and the turks.

when greece revolted and got freed, there were some turks living inside it. these were forced out and back to turkey. also the greeks living in turkey were forced out.


this is called an exchange of populations a very inhumane practise initiated between greeks and turks in that region.


since balkan nationalism is very much based on ethnicity and ethnic roots are very strong in these parts (unlike in barbaric europe where being a hun is nothign to defend agaisnt ) , the existance of other ethnicities in a balkan country was deemed weakness.

[chequita guevara]

You guys need a democratic Balkan federation.

[Bereta_Eder]

it was thought of and tried to happen by greek intelectuals after the liberation but it didnt work.

[chequita guevara]

If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.

Where would the US be if they didn't try again after the Articles of Confederation proved to be such a dismal failure?

[Bereta_Eder]

wat we also need is less pissing and manipualtion from other external powers. this is not to be underestimated either.

[Bereta_Eder]

how can we try again and again?

after the liberation of greece and afterwards of the rest of the balkans, it was tried.

but after that the 2 balkan wars happened and it was lost for ever. everybody was aiming for more land

[Pekka]

Ned, cool down . You know Europe is a large place with many different countries and views. Living in it, I know it's the loud minority (not very small though, but still minority) that pisses you of. Many people are against aggressions, many support it. Are we in the way? Are we putting our troops between? No. Some are only expressing their freedom of speach, which is a liberty and right in here too, you know. So why are we biggest enemy? It's the european way, we make lots of comments, yes. But if someone attacks, IMO we are don't only have the right, but are almost obligated to do it. The world is not black and white.
I think we could support you more yes, but less support doesn't make us the enemy, or threat.
And again, Europe is a big place, and many countries. Many countries CAN'T do more than they are doing now. Only the biggest countries can. It's very easy to pick on the Europe as a whole, isn't it? But calling it the biggest threat? I think you just woke up too early.

[Pekka]

Now I sound like a whining little *****. Wasn't intentional. You can be anti-euro if you wan to, of course. CHAAAAARRGE!

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh


Aren't these two sentences together rather hypocritical?

Hey! You can't be French. I know you, you're Austrian!

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Your opinion versus the rest of the world's. I'll take the world's opinion over a Polish nationalist's, especially considering what happened to the remaining Polish Jews after the war.

Yeah. What he said.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Pekka
Ned, cool down . You know Europe is a large place with many different countries and views. Living in it, I know it's the loud minority (not very small though, but still minority) that pisses you of. Many people are against aggressions, many support it. Are we in the way? Are we putting our troops between? No. Some are only expressing their freedom of speach, which is a liberty and right in here too, you know. So why are we biggest enemy? It's the european way, we make lots of comments, yes. But if someone attacks, IMO we are don't only have the right, but are almost obligated to do it. The world is not black and white.
I think we could support you more yes, but less support doesn't make us the enemy, or threat.
And again, Europe is a big place, and many countries. Many countries CAN'T do more than they are doing now. Only the biggest countries can. It's very easy to pick on the Europe as a whole, isn't it? But calling it the biggest threat? I think you just woke up too early.

Yeah, Pekka. I get a little hot under the collar sometimes.

I would just say that I was very surprised at European attitudes about the US expressed here on Apolyton. You should know that a lot of Americans are becoming aware of the anti-us sentiment in Europe. Most are concerned. Some, many are angry.

[Dry]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

Hey, jerk, if you don't want to have a serious conversation - don't.

I think you didn't get my point.
My post was on an exagerated mode, only to try to make you understand what kind of feeling your post generated.
To be more explicit, a post like your one - and some of Ned's - make me feel like Israel and US ask us for an unconditional support, not against terrorism, not against Hamas, but against Arafat and Pals.
This you will certainly not have. And no free human beeing will give-up his ability to think by himself.

The problem is that if we - europeans - agree with the fight against terrorism, we disagree on the methods and most of all on the roots.
What Israel is doing today in the Pals territory seems to us only smoke to the eyes of public opinion: "See, good people, there is the Big Bad, and we, good president, will do our job". Looks, way to childish and even more, it looks like once again some try to focus our attention to fake problems.
We, in europe, have been f***ed to much and too often by politics and media to think that if Joe hits Bob, it is Joe who is the bad guy. Before declaring Joe the bad guy, we want to know more about what happened.

It is like cutting the plant, without removing the root. Kill, or get rid of Arafat, and you will have more anger of Pals. Do you really know one single people to whom you would say: your president is a bad one, that wouldn't react by supporting him almost without condition. Look at americans' reaction when a non-american say their president is a monkey. Look at your reaction when we say Sharon is an extremist. Do you expect the Pals to react differently?

raped?
huh?

Ok, not raped, whatever. Keep record of whatever act against human rights.
Remember, my post is an overreaction to try to makes you feel what were my feelings to your post.

[/q]Think for yourself?

Tell me do you believe in the masons or the illuminati??[/q]
Having masons among my friends, we sometimes talked about it. Their "think by yourself" side is indeed something I agree with. But I am still too associal to join. You could call me an outside supporter. But keep it secret
illuminati? Don't know what that is.

What does that have to do with anything, you *****?

It has to do with the fact that your post made me think that, because you were victim of the nazis, as long as you are not acting as evil as the nazis, you are allowed to do what you want and nobody are allowed to criticize.
I just wanted to say that I disagree with that.
It is not because Bill was beaten to death by Joe, that Bill's child is now allowed to spit at the face of Bob.

I bet you didn't even read my f*cking post. You have a problem with the number 6,000,000 and that is YOUR problem.

Once again, you didn't get the spirit of my post. Nobody in the world ever made a - real, true - comparisson between what is happening in the gaza band and what was made by the Nazis. Your post was very insulting - at least to me - to even think it. I guess some of your media wrote or said that about us, Europeans, but I would put that on the emotional exageration (same as my previous post). Remember: medias work on emotion, not on reflection.
When people are strongly emotionally shocked, they overreact in order to show the other part what kind of feeling his words or actions, has brought.
I perfectly understand, by looking at the media reaction in Israel and the US, that the European position is shocking in those countries, I less understand that you really believe that because we disagree on the roots of terrorism, it means we do want to fight it, or that we are anti-semitic.

That is for example the reason why I really do believe that you - US and Isreal - would receive European support against Saudi Arabia, which is where the terror money comes from.
No European understand that you say you fight terrorism, and OTOH you do not say a word against SA.
But ther is few hope that it happen, because SA has full support of the US, and if the western world goes against muslim's holy land, who knows what may happen...
And SA is maybe a needed ally against Saddam... Oh, makes me think... is the goal of the US Saddam, or terrorism? Isn't terrorism only the fake reason in order to mobilize the good people? Questions that we ask ourseleves here in Europe...

Arafat, Saddam are a small fishes, and the same way you don't get rid of drug traffic by putting only small dealers and customers to jail, the same way, you won't get rid of terrorism if you don't go for the big fishes.
Fighting only small dealers and customers is only smoke to the eyes of the good people, to make them believe you are doing something. It is NOT solving the problem.
Sorry man, but I cannot truely believe in drug fight if your only policy is "we will get rid of small dealers". When some politician say that, I say: demagogy, the guy is only interrested in re-election, not in drug fight.

My post about how the comparison is wrong doesn't even mention that number, but the essense of the hapenning, so f*ck off.

I understand your overreaction and understand you were shocked by my post. You had probably the reaction I had when reading yours.

Could we call that tie?

[DaShi]

Ignorance is fun.

[Ned]

Dry, Good post. I think, after all, that there is common ground between Europe and the United States and Israel. The reason I say this is that a lot of radio talk show and some of the media talk shows have noted that Saudi Arabia is the source of Wahhabiism, the radical branch of Islam that fuels al Qaida and which also seems to be the source of the most offensive acts of barbarism that occur under the color of law - for example, stoning a young mother to death for having sex outside marriage.

The royal family there is probably talking out of everyside of its mouth because of the inherent tensions Wahhabiism creates. On the one hand, it needs to be friends with West because it does not have the military power to defeat Saddam and it need our technology to explore and pump oil, etc. One the other, if it is not "kind" to the Wahhabi clerics they will soon forment a rebellion.

The royal family really needs to resolve the situation in Palestine in order to damp down the religious fervor of the clerics. This is why, I believe, they want to focus on this issue first and leave Saddam and OBL for later.

I believe Bush is going to leave the royal family alone so long as they continue to cooperate on Palestine - and say and do the right things about OBL.

But I do agree, that the ultimate source of radicalism in the world is Saudi Arabia. This problem is never going to be resolved completely until that country is "fixed."

[TheBirdMan]

Just to turn back to the topic.

No! The nation itself is not a physical part of Europe and that is that.

As for the religious/political part of the jews - also no!

They are not better (and not worse) than fanatic muslims, christians and political right-wings of all kinds.

And I think we can do well - or even better - without those luny fanatics.

I say, the last fanatics should be US, the danes. Nearly half the population do still not want to be EU-citizens. Though we are told to line up and do, what is best for our nation.

Hey, that was actually more off-topic than on-topic