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  • Originally posted by Boshko

    And Alexander the Great is horrifically over-rated, he had an excellent army given to him by his father that didn't have to fight much besides a disorganized low-morale led by a second-rate predender to an empire in decline. The greeks that handed the Persians defeats when the empire was at its height trump Alexander easily.
    More experienced army? Yes. Better equipped army? Yes. But smaller than the Persian one.
    Strange but do you know any army that is inferior in all aspects even in moral and won a better army in all aspects? I don't.
    And do you think that the Chengis Khan's army and Napoleon's army faced harder armies than the ones Alexander faced? I certainly don't think so.

    Originally posted by Chris 62

    No other military leader comes close, Alexander was no great stratagist, nor able tactician (his favorite tactic was a headlong cavalery charge into an enemie's flank, hardly noteworthy).
    Brave and couragous, to be sure, but the greatest?
    I don't believe so.
    Do you know many leaders that took over a smaller country's army and conquered in few years an entire superpower, the strongest empire of their times? I don't. Each battle Alexander gave had different surpises and units to deal with but the resolution was the same. Winning. And that's one thing that make a leader great for sure. And Alexander was unbeatable to all battles he gave. I wonder how many kingdoms, tribes and empires would had incorporated into his empire if he had lived for a decade or two more...

    Originally posted by Alexander's Horse

    Aside from that he was also an evil destructive psychopath but that isn't the question here
    The poor guy had a little temper
    But he was just a child comperared with the destruction the rest empires had left behind before him or even after. You count how many cities Alexander destroyed but when you deal with other empires you simply count how many cities weren't destroyed


    Having said that I give my vote to Alexander the Great followed by Chengis Khan as the greatest military leaders of all times.

    Also I must refer to Cyrus, the founder of the first superpower of history, mostly his work, and to the answer Hannibal gave to Scipio Africanus when asked who considered the best general of the world: "Pyrrus first, Scipio Africanus second and himself third".

    Comment


    • More experienced army? Yes. Better equipped army? Yes. But smaller than the Persian one.
      Strange but do you know any army that is inferior in all aspects even in moral and won a better army in all aspects? I don't.
      And do you think that the Chengis Khan's army and Napoleon's army faced harder armies than the ones Alexander faced? I certainly don't think so.
      Alexander also had excellent Lieutenents, a legacy of his father. Philip ultimately was responsible for Alexander's victories, if you could say one person was.
      "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
      -Bokonon

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      • By sheer achievement, Alexander the Great or Genghis Khan.

        By ability with resources at their disposal, Belisarius or even Spartacus.
        Speaking of Erith:

        "It's not twinned with anywhere, but it does have a suicide pact with Dagenham" - Linda Smith

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        • Justinian the Great

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          • Originally posted by Keygen


            More experienced army? Yes. Better equipped army? Yes. But smaller than the Persian one.
            Strange but do you know any army that is inferior in all aspects even in moral and won a better army in all aspects? I don't.
            Alexander lost to Porus. Do you really believe his men simply wanted to go "home." They didn't.

            As to achieving victory with untrained troops - well, in a sense untrained - Provost Harrison has nominated Spartacus. I second that nomination. With a slave army and a gladiator core, he dominated the Romans as almost as much as had Hannibal.
            http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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            • Originally posted by Chris 62
              I'm not saying he's rotten Horsey, but does it compare with Chengis Khan?

              Let's take a look:


              The green area is the mongol conquest under the Khan, as you can see, it encompases almost all of Alexander's lands plus a GREAT deal more, namely China.
              That isn't a map of Genghis Khan's conquests. It's a map of the Mongolian Empire at its largest extent (excluding the vassal states in Southeast Asia, India, Turkey and Russia). That wasn't achieved until the rule of Kublai Khan.
              Here's a better map:
              Explore National Geographic. A world leader in geography, cartography and exploration.


              Most importantly, the conquest of the Southern Chinese Song empire wasn't fully completed until Kublai Khan's rule (Genghis Khan was still struggling with the northern Jin empire).

              Originally posted by Chris 62
              Once a city surrendered, they would typically slowly and painfully kill the enemy leaders (pouring moltan silver down one Russian prince's throat, for example) as a lesson for future cities, and killing the defenders, and drafting all other males to be conscripted into the Mongol army (the women to be raped, of course).
              Well, not all men. Usually only the people with special skills. Of the general population a portion was decimated, while the rest was set free (so they conveniently spread the word of the brutal Mongols, often causing cities to surrender before the Mongols had even arrived).

              For a thrilling Mongol campaign, read about the defeat of the Khwarizmian empire( modern day Iran and Iraq), an army of 250,000 by a mongol force of only 40,000 men! (it took them 11 years, but they did it in grand style)
              If the Internet is any good, that would be around 3 years. And Khwarizm didn't extend west into Iraq (which was part of the Abbasid caliphate), but rather further East, into Afghanistan, and the former Soviet republics.

              Originally posted by Chris 62

              Originally posted by Boshko

              Actually the Mongols had quite sophisticated siege operations manned largely by the Chinese they had conquered who were quite good at that sort of thing.
              Incorrect Boshko.

              Your thinking Kublai Khan, which would be correct, not Chengis Khan, which is incorrect.
              I'm not sure, but I think Boshko is right. They took the siege technologies from their conquests with the two northern "Chinese" empires and used them at least against Khwarizmia.


              Even so, I do think Genghis Khan was the greatest military leader (even though I might be a little biased, since Genghis Khan is pretty much the only one I'm familiar with).
              Civilization II: maps, guides, links, scenarios, patches and utilities (+ Civ2Tech and CivEngineer)

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              • Originally posted by Ned


                Alexander lost to Porus. Do you really believe his men simply wanted to go "home." They didn't.
                Alexander lost to Porus? News to me - it was considered one of his most brilliant victories:

                The Battle of the Jhelum

                Alexander's ideas concerning India were, at this point still sketchy in the extreme. To the Greeks, the land across the Indus was a shallow peninsula, bounded on the north by the Hindu Kush, and on the east by the great world-stream of Ocean, which ran at no great distance beyond the Sind Desert. On the main Indian sub-continent, let alone the vast Far Eastern land-mass from China to Malaysia, they knew nothing.

                In general Alexander's ignorance of Indian geography remained profound, and his whole Eastern strategy rested on a false assumption. When enlightenment came, it was too late. The great Ganges Plain, by its mere existence, shattered his dream more effectively than any army could have done.

                Scylax, Herodotus and Ctesias had all written in some detail about India, but even if Alexander had read this stuff he still would not have been much smarter. By the 4th century Persia had abandoned her Indian satrapies: and even when it was officially part of the empire, the land beyond the Indus remained a region of myth and fable. Alexander's main impulse in invading this mysterious land was sheer curiosity, along with a determination to achieve world-domination in the fullest sense. When he finally stood on the Ocean shore he would then fulfill that ambition. India once conquered would mean that all of Asia would be in his hands.

                The size of Alexander's army at this time would be almost impossible to estimate. He had not more than 15,000 Macedonians, of which 2,000 were cavalrymen. The total estimate of cavalrymen is between 6,500 and 15,000. The infantry numbers are uncertain, but is varying from 20,000 to 120,000. They went over the Kushan Pass to Alexandria-of-the-Caucasus in ten days. While still in Bactria, Alexander was joined by an Indian rajah, Sasigupta, who warned Alexander about what lay beyond the Khyber Pass. Alexander now sent envoys to Ambhi, the rajah at Taxila and the Indians west of the Indus River, asking them to meet him ,at their convenience, in the Kabul Valley. Ambhi and other minor princes arrived bearing gifts, flattering speeches of welcome, and twenty-five elephants. Alexander's eye caught the elephants and, eventually, the Indians made a gift of them. However, Ambhi had a good reason for staying with Alexander and his men. He wanted the Macedonian army's support to defeat his arch enemy Porus, a powerful monarch whose domains reached beyond the Hydaspes River.

                Alexander now divided his army. Hephaestion and Perdiccas, with more than half of Alexander's cavalry, three battalions of the phalanx, and the baggage-train, were to go down the Khyber Pass to the Indus. Their instructions were to take over all the places in their way by force or agreement, and when they reach the Indus they were to make conditions right for crossing. Meanwhile Alexander, with Craterus as second-in-command, planned to take a mobile column up the Choaspes River, and to march through the hill country of Bajaur and Swat, to reduce any enemy strongholds en route, and giving cover to the left flank. The two forces would finally rendezvous at the Indus.


                Alexander had a very rough passage during the campaign. Most of the walled towns he attacked put up a violent resistance. By retaliation, when the cities fell he butchered the inhabitants wholesale. At Massaga he massacred 7,000 Indian mercenaries together with their wives and children. After dealing with the Aspersions along the Lunar and Bajaur valleys, Alexander's men moved north, into the region below Clitoral. The first city they got to gave up after a short siege.


                Alexander carried out a quick reconnaissance of the surrounding countryside. His patrols were ordered to interrogate the natives and "to get information about elephants." Most of the Indians had fled across the river. Alexander-- whose retinue included a group of hunters and mahouts--rounded up thirteen abandoned elephants and attached them to his column. He then built rafts and took the entire force, including elephants, downstream to Ohnid.


                It was now March of 326. Alexander gave his troops a month's rest (ending with athletic contests and a cavalry tattoo?). Then, after giving sacrifices, they crossed the Indus and headed towards Taxila. Alexander, extremely jumpy after his Swat campaign, thought that here was a dangerous trap. What the King thought at this time tells us quite a bit about his state of mind at the time. The rajah's army was five mile ahead, and in full view. The moment the rajah saw the Macedonian army, and guessed its cause, he galloped on alone except for a small cavalry escort. He and his army surrendered to Alexander, and Alexander reinstated him as rajah of Taxila.


                The army spent between two and three months there, which in respect was a near fatal mistake on Alexander's part. It meant that by the time he embarked on the next stage of his expedition, about the beginning of June, the monsoon rain had begun. But if he could negotiate accommodations with Porus and Abisares, the rajah of Kashmir, there for avoiding another major campaign, that would be time well spent. By now he had a clear idea of what he was up against and he didn't like it.


                Immediately after the arrival of ambassadors from Abisars Alexander sent his own envoys to Porus so that the timing would not be lost on him. The Paurava monarch was requested to meet Alexander at the Jhelum and to pay tribute in token of vassalage. The reply to this was exactly what Alexander had feared but expected. Porus would indeed meet Alexander at the Jhelum, but in full military strength, and ready to do battle for his kingdom. Intelligence reports put his force at 3,000-4,000 cavalry and up to 50,000 infantry, along with some 200 elephants and 300 war chariots. He was expecting reinforcements from Abisares, and his troops had already begun to move up along the eastern bank of the river.


                Alexander had no time to lose. His first urgent need was for a transport flotilla. Taxila lay miles from the nearest navigable river, not only that but it would take too long to build the ships. Coenus was therefore sent back to the Inudes, with orders to dismantle Alexander's pontoon bridge, cut up the boats, and load them onto ox carts. They would then be carried over land for reassembly at the Jhelum. About the beginning of the June the monsoon broke and a few days later Alexander led his army southward to meet Porus, though steaming, torrential rains that continued, without a break, for over two months.


                His route lay across the Salt Range, by the way of Chakawal and Ava. When he was though the Nandana Pass, he turned southwest and reached the Jhelum near Haranpur, having marched about 110 miles since leaving Taxila. He knew, from intelligence reports on the terrain ahead that Haranpur was one of the few points at which he could hope to ford the Jhelum under the monsoons conditions.


                Porus clearly had been thinking along very similar lines. When Alexander reached the Haranpur ford, he found the opposite bank held in strength by a large force that included archers and chariots. Most alarming of all, especially to the horses, were Porus' elephants. A squadron of these great beasts, 85 strong, kept guard over the approaches, stamping and trumpeting as they moved ponderously to and fro. The river itself swollen by monsoon rains, came roaring past in muddy spate, a good half mile wide. There was no sign of the promised crossing point.


                Even if it were physically possible, to negotiate the river against such mass opposition would be suicidal. Alexander's cavalry horses would go mad with fright if brought anywhere near the elephants. It looked very much like stalemate, and Alexander deliberately encouraged this impression by having endless wagon loads of corn and other supplies brought to his camp, in full sight of the enemy. This would convince Porus that his opponent-as he professed-meant to sweat it out on the Jhelum River until the rains were over and the river became fordable once again. At the same time Macedonian troop activities continued to signal the possibility of an immediate attack.


                But, as time passed, and no attack materialized, Porus became less distracted on Alexander's attacking him- which was what Alexander intended to happen. Meanwhile, Macedonian cavalry pistols were discreetly exploring the higher reaches of the Jhelum and going as far east as Jalalpur. It was here that they found what Alexander was looking for: a large, wooded island (called Admana) with only a narrow channel going between it and the sides. It also had a deep nullah (deep gully) where the army could hide. Alexander decided to ford the Jhelum by night, so he spent most of his time and ingenuity trying to confuse Porus to his real intentions. Every night fires would be lit over a wide area, with plenty of noise and bustle. At first Porus took these demonstrations very seriously. But after awhile, when he found that nothing came of the noise and clatter, he relaxed his vigilance.


                Alexander now learned that Abisares was no more then 50 miles off, with an army a little smaller then that of Porus. To let them join forces was out of the question. Porus, then, must be dealt with in the next 48 hours. Alexander's flotilla had already been transported piecemeal to Jalalpur and reassembled in the Kander Kas nullah. The King now held an emergency staff conference and outlined his plan for the assault.


                The larger part of the army was to remain at the base camp by the Haranpur ford, under Craterus' command. Preparations for crossing the river were to be carried out quite openly. The King's pavilion was to be pitched in a conspicuous position near the bank. A certain Macedonian officer, a near double of Alexander, was to appear wearing his royal cloak, 'in order to give the impression that the King himself was encamped on that part of the bank'.


                In fact the King, along with the main assault group would already be on his way to Jalalpur. This force which numbered 5,000 horse and at least 10,000 foot, would cross the river before dawn and advance down the southern bank on Porus' position. A second group of three battalions of the phalanx, plus the mercenary cavalry and infantry, was to take up a position between Haranpur and Admana Island, opposite the main fords, and only cross when battle had been joined.


                Craterus' holding force was not to attempt a crossing until Porus had moved from his position to Attack Alexander, and only then provided no elephants were left behind to defend the fort, or until he was sure that Porus was in retreat and the Greeks victorious. Whichever way Porus moved, he left himself open for attack from the rear, either by Alexander or Craterus. His one possible defense was to detach a strong but limited force that could destroy Alexander's assault group before it established a bridgehead, thus leaving Porus himself in full control at Haranpur.


                Alexander built up his turning force from the units of the Royal Squadron of the Companions, three cavalry divisions under Hephaestion, Perdiccas and Demetrius, the Guards Brigade, two phalanx battalions, commanded by Coenus and Cletus the White, the archers and agrarians, cavalry units from Bactria and Turkestan, and a special force of Scythian horse archers. This whole body about 15,000-16,000 strong, he brought to the crossing point, and went on boats and rafts, by about 3 a.m. on the morning of the assault.


                He had to get this large force out of the camp in broad daylight, without their departure being noticed by Porus' scouts, march over 17 miles, reassemble and launch enough vessels to take them across the river, and embark the entire assault group well before dawn. To complicate matters further, the critical part of this operation was carried out in darkness, during a particularly violent electric storm.


                When dawn broke and the wind and rain had become less violent, the flotilla was already sailing down the northern channel, still hidden from Poruses scouts by the wooded mass of Admana Island. But when they passed beyond its western tip, the alarm was given, and messengers rode off at full speed to warn Porus. It was now that Alexander made a miscalculation that could have cost him the battle. When he was clear of Admana Island he put in to shore and disembarked all his forces, cavalry leading. But, as he presently found, what he had taken for the river bank was in fact another long, narrow island, Finally, he managed to find a ford but to get such a force ashore must have taken several hours, at the very least, by which time Porus would have known all about it.


                Was Alexander's move a feint, or the prelude to a major attack? At this point no one could tell. Without hesitation Porus detached a force of 2,000 cavalry and 120 chariots, under his own son, to ride east with all possible speed, and if possible, destroy Alexander's assault group before it was clear of the river. In the circumstances this was his only feasible move, but he had made it too late. His son was no match for the best cavalry units in the whole Macedonian army. Besides, he was heavily outnumbered. After a brief skirmish, during which Bucephalas received the wound from which he would later die from, the Indians fled, leaving 400 dead behind, including young Porus himself. The chariots bogged down in the thick mud and had to be abandoned.


                When Porus heard the news he had a brief period of indecision. Either as a feint or because they took minor engagement across the river for a full scale victory, Craterus' men were making vigorous preparations to force the Haranpur crossing. Finally, however Porus decided that his show down must be with Alexander. He left a holding force to keep Craterus in play and marched the rest of his army upstream, ready for battle. At this point he probably had at his disposal 20,000 infantry, 2,000 horse, 130 elephants and 180 chariots.


                He picked his ground carefully, a level sandy plain, free from mud, where elephants and cavalry would have ample room to maneuver. Porus drew up his infantry battalions in a wide central front, stationing an elephant every hundred feet or so to strengthen them. On each wing he placed a flanking body of infantry, and then his cavalry, with a full squadron of chariots masking them. The overall Indian battle line must have been nearer to four miles then three in length, of which the infantry accounted for at least two thirds.


                To defeat Porus' cavalry, Alexander adopted a highly ingenious strategy. If he launched a cavalry attack of his own against the Indian left wing, then Porus might well take a swinger, in this case would mean shifting his right wing cavalry across to the left in hopes of achieving total victory. The success of such a plan depended on Alexander keeping two full cavalry divisions hidden from the enemy until Porus had committed his own force irrevocably to a left flank engagement.


                The commander of these divisions, Coenus, received very specific instructions. He was to circle Porus's right wing, out of sight, and wait until battle was joined on the opposite flank. If Porus transferred his right wing cavalry to feed this engagement, Coenus was to charge across behind the enemy lines, and to take them in the rear or he would just engage them normally,


                The phalanx battalions and the guards Brigade, in similar fashion, had orders 'not to engage until it was evident that the Indians, both horse and foot had been thrown into confusion by the Macedonian cavalry'. His disposition thus made, Alexander attacked at once. The mounted archers, a 1,000 strong, were launched against the Indian left, and knocked out almost all of Poruses chariots, a very useful softening up process. Then the King charged, at the head of this massed cavalry division.


                Porus did exactly what Alexander had hoped he would. From the howdah on top of his great war elephant the rajah made a lightning assessment of Macedonian cavalry strength, and brought across his own right wing squadrons to deliver the knock out blow. Coenus, with two fresh divisions, at once broke cover and rode in pursuit. The Indians engaged against Alexander suddenly found themselves forced to fight a rear guard action against Coenus as well.


                The real nightmare facing the phalanx, one that haunted them for the rest of their days, was the row of maddened, trumpeting, furious elephants. Alexander had worked out a plan for dealing with these beasts, encircle them, let the archers pick off their mahouts, and then discharge volleys of javelins and spears into the most vulnerable parts of their anatomy. The infantrymen, meanwhile, slashed through their trunks with Persian scimitars, or chopped at the feet with axes. The elephants had several very effective tricks of their own. Some Macedonian soldiers where smashed under foot, armor and all. Others they caught up with their trunks and dashed to the ground. Others, again, found themselves impaled on the great beasts tusks. As Porus' squadrons were pressed back, the elephants, hemmed in a narrow space, began to trample their own side. The cavalry suffered particularly heavy losses because of them.



                Click here to download a high resolution version of this image (113.5 K).

                Porus led one last elephant charge in person. It was not a success. By now the Macedonians were learning how to deal with these huge creatures with minimal risk to themselves. Dodging them, and relentlessly slashing and shooting at them and their riders. Presently the elephants decided they had had enough and slowly began to back away. At this Alexander drew his cavalry ring tighter round Porus's battered divisions, and signaled the Guards Brigade and the phalanx to lock shields and move up in a solid mass.


                This final stage of the battle was pure butchery, but the Macedonians, after so traumatic an experience, were in no mood to give quarter. Indian casualties are variously estimated at 12,000+ and 23,000.


                Porus fought to the bitter end but when he saw that any more resistance would be futile he rode slowly off the field weak from loss of blood. Alexander, anxious to save the life of this great warrior sent a diplomat after him to offer terms. Porus eventually dismounted from his elephant and was brought to Alexander, weak and thirsty. When Alexander asked how he wanted to be treated he said " Like a king."


                Gaugamela was fought against heavier odds and far more hung on its outcome. But at the Jhelum Alexander displayed a more flexible resourcefulness of strategy which he never equaled on any other occasion, from his brilliant initial dispositions to the final ruse by which he outmaneuvered Porus' cavalry. In addition he had to cope with appalling weather, and the worst of all, with the Indian war elephants. This frightful struggle left its mark on Alexander's men. Their nerve, if not broken, was severely shaken, and nothing Alexander said or did would ever make them want to face elephants in battle again.






                As to achieving victory with untrained troops - well, in a sense untrained - Provost Harrison has nominated Spartacus. I second that nomination. With a slave army and a gladiator core, he dominated the Romans as almost as much as had Hannibal.
                Oh give me a break
                Any views I may express here are personal and certainly do not in any way reflect the views of my employer. Tis the rising of the moon..

                Look, I just don't anymore, okay?

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                • Alexander The Great [356 - 323 BC]
                  Iron Maiden

                  My son, ask for thyself another kingdom,
                  For that which I leave is to small for thee.

                  Near to the East, in a part of ancient Greece,
                  In an ancient land called Macedonia,
                  Was born a son to Philip of Macedon,
                  The legend his name was Alexander.

                  At the age of nineteen, he became the Macedon king,
                  And swore to free all of Asia Minor,
                  By the Aegian Sea in 334 BC,
                  He utterly beat the armies of Persia.

                  Chorus:
                  Alexander the Great,
                  His name struck fear into hearts of men,
                  Alexander the Great,
                  Became a legend 'mongst mortal men.

                  King Darius the third, Defeated fled Persia,
                  The Scythians fell by the river Jaxartes,
                  Then Egypt fell to the Macedon king as well,
                  And he founded the city called Alexandria.

                  By the Tigris river, he met King Darius again,
                  And crushed him again in the battle of Arbela,
                  Entering Babylon and Susa, treasures he found,
                  Took Persepolis, the capital of Persia.

                  Chorus:
                  Alexander the Great,
                  His name struck fear into hearts of men,
                  Alexander the Great,
                  Became a god amongst mortal men.

                  A Phrygian King had bound a chariot yoke,
                  And Alexander cut the "Gordion knot",
                  And legend said that who untied the knot,
                  He would become the master of Asia.

                  Hellenism he spread far and wide,
                  The Macedonian learned mind,
                  Their culture was a western way of life,
                  He paved the way for Christianity.

                  Marching on, Marching on.

                  The battle weary marching side by side,
                  Alexander's army line by line,
                  They wouldn't follow him to India,
                  Tired of the combat, pain and the glory.

                  Chorus:
                  Alexander the Great,
                  His name struck fear into hearts of men,
                  Alexander the Great,
                  He died of fever in Babylon.


                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Alexander's Horse


                    The great Ganges Plain, by its mere existence, shattered his dream more effectively than any army could have done.
                    You need to understand the Greek world view at the time. Alexander believed he was mopping up on the edge of the world and his army believed the same when they found India. The shock of finding whole new civilisations with sophisticated armies was what really ended the campaign. His men would not go on and Alexander retired to Babylon.

                    But he was still a young man and was plotting an invasion of India when he died suddenly, probably from malaria.
                    Any views I may express here are personal and certainly do not in any way reflect the views of my employer. Tis the rising of the moon..

                    Look, I just don't anymore, okay?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Ned

                      Alexander lost to Porus. Do you really believe his men simply wanted to go "home." They didn't.
                      That's simply your opinion. You can't negate the fact that historians grand the victory to Alexander and not to Porus. And yeah, why not believe the story that the men including the lower ranked officers after 10 years of fighting and marching denied to further continue? That long period of continual moving was an unknown thing to the Greeks.

                      Originally posted by Ned

                      As to achieving victory with untrained troops - well, in a sense untrained - Provost Harrison has nominated Spartacus. I second that nomination. With a slave army and a gladiator core, he dominated the Romans as almost as much as had Hannibal.
                      I will second too here

                      I will add Demetrius the besieger and Tamerlan in the list of the great generals.
                      Attilas aslo made some impression in his time threatening Rome itself.
                      Seleukus Nicator was a capable general as well.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mercator

                        I'm not sure, but I think Boshko is right. They took the siege technologies from their conquests with the two northern "Chinese" empires and used them at least against Khwarizmia.
                        The mongols knew nothing about siege. They had to use mechanics from China and the Islamic world to successfully besiege fortified cities.

                        Comment


                        • I wanna add you as my new search engine Mr. AH, for real, you seem to well versed on several subjects!!

                          Thx

                          been learning a lot from your posts!!

                          ~Peace~
                          Attached Files
                          Hi, I'm RAH and I'm a Benaholic.-rah

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                          • Alexander's Horse: Thank's for quoting the whole of the battle against Porus. It looks like Porus may have lost battle, but in the process he won the war. Alexander retreated from India.

                            What is it about Spartacus that you disparage?
                            http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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                            • Here is another account of the Battle Jhelum. I did find revisionist sites which claim he lost but, surprise, surprise, they are mainly linked to the Hindu Nationalist cause

                              The battle of Jhelum was one of the major battles in Alexander's campaign in India and Bactria. It took place at the River Jhelum. It took place in 326 B.C. Alexander, as usual, led his troops. The Indians were led by Porus, the monarch in Paurava who's domain stretched as far as beyond the Hydaspes River and a great military leader.

                              India, the site of this battle, was not well known about by foreigners in this time. All the foreigners were ignorant about it and had misconceptions. To the Greeks, the land across the Indus was a shallow peninsula, bound on the north by the Hindu Kush and on the east by a great world. There was a stream, which was actually the ocean, that ran at no great distance beyond the Sind Desert. They knew nothing about the India sub-continent. In general, Alexander stayed pretty ignorant about India. His entire strategy was based on false assumptions, and when enlightenment came it was to late. The Great Ganges Plain, about which Alexander made one of the most lethal assumptions of all, shattered Alexander's dream more effectively than any army every would or could.

                              It was almost impossible to even estimate the size of Alexander's army at the time of this battle. He had no more than 15,000 Macedonians in his army, of which 2,000 were cavalry. The total amount of cavalry has been estimated to be anywhere between 6,500 and 15,000. The total amount of infantry is even more uncertain, with estimates varying from 20,000 to 120,000. Intelligence reports gave more certain amounts of men for Porus' army. They said that Porus had 3,000-4,000 cavalry, up to 50,000 infantry, 200 elephants, and 300 war chariots. They also expected reinforcements from Abisares in this battle.

                              Before the Battle
                              The passage to Jhelum was very rough. Most of the walled towns attacked by Alexander gave violent resistance. For retaliation, when the cities fell Alexander butchered the inhabitants wholesale. One example of this slaughter was at Masaga. Here he massacred 7,000 Indian mercenaries along with their wives and children.

                              In March 325 B.C., Alexander gave his troops one month to rest. He ended this break with athletic contests. Then Alexander gave sacrifices, crossed the Indus, and went toward Taxila. Alexander, jumpy after his campaign, thought there was a dangerous plot in Taxila.

                              On his way to Taxila, he passed through Clitorial. Here he ordered his patrols to interrogate the natives and get information about elephants, of which Alexander had none. Most of the elephants, he found out, had fled across the river. Alexander rounded up 13 abandoned elephants and attached them to the column. He built a raft and they all went downstream.

                              When Alexander was near Taxila the rajah's army was five miles away. Alexander, with only a small cavalry, went to Taxila. The rajah there guessed Alexander's cause and surrendered. Alexander became Taxila's new rajah for a while until he found a suitable person to govern it.

                              In Taxila Alexander and his army spent two or three months resting. This was a fatal mistake for Alexander because when they resumed their march it was June, the beginning of the monsoon season. During the monsoons, Alexander wanted to negotiate accommodations with Porus and Abisares, the rajahs of Kashmir. Once the ambassadors from Abisares returned Alexander sent his own envoy to Porus. By doing this, Alexander lost no time.

                              The Macedonians then went over the Kushan Pass to Alexandria-of-the- Caucasus in ten days. While he was still in Bactria, Alexander was joined by an Indian rajah, Sasigupta, who warned Alexander about dangers in the Khyber pass. After hearing about this, Alexander sent envoys to see Alexander's Persian rajah at Taxila, the Indian Ambhi, and some Indians west of the Indus river. He asked them to meet with him, at their convenience, in the Kabul Valley.

                              Finally Ambhi and other Indian princes arrived bearing gifts of welcome and 25 elephants. Alexander's eyes caught the elephants, and eventually Ambhi made a gift of them. Ambhi had good reason to side with the Macedonians. The reason was that Ambhi wanted the Macedonian army's support in defeating his arch-enemy, Porus, who you might remember ruled past the Hydaspes River.

                              Some days after the meeting, Porus requested to see Alexander at the River Jhelum and to pay tribute in a token of vesselage. Alexander knew Porus would go there with a full military force, ready to use it.

                              Alexander, at the River Jhelum, desperately needed a transport flotilla. Unfortunately, it would take to long to build the ships and Taxila was miles from the nearest navigable river. Because of this problem, Alexander sent Coenus back to Inudes with orders to dismantle Alexander's pontoon bridge, cut up boats, and load them onto carts. Then they would be carried over land for reassembling at the Jhelum.

                              About at the beginning of June in 336 B.C. a monsoon broke and a few days later Alexander lead his army southward to meet Porus through streaming, torrential rains that continued for two months. He got to the place he was to meet Porus at by going through Chakaval and Ava, both in the Salt Range, went through the Madana Pass, turned south-west and reached Jhelum Haranpur, having marched 110 miles since Taxila. He went to Haranpur because he knew it was one of the few places he could ford.

                              But when he reached Haranpur he found the opposite bank held by a large force with archers, chariots, and 85 elephants. The elephants kept guard, stamping and trumpeting to and fro. The river itself was swollen by the monsoons, a good one-third of a mile wide. It would not be an easy crossing.

                              At Jhelum, with the two opposing forces at opposite sides of the river bank, it looked like a stalemate. Alexander encouraged this impression by having endless wagon loads of corn and other stuff brought to his camp in full site of Porus and his army. The reason for this was to convince Porus that the Macedonians would wait until the river was fordable. At the same time Macedonian troop activities continued, to signal the possibility of an immediate attack. But as time passed, Porus became less and less distracted by the possibility of an attack by Alexander. This was just what Alexander wanted.

                              When Porus was paying little attention, the Macedonian cavalry was discreetly exploring higher reaches of the Jhelum and going as far as to the city of Jalapur. Here they found just what Alexander wanted:A large wooded island, now called Admana, with only a narrow channel going between it and the sides of it. It also had a nullah, or a deep gully, where Alexander's army could hide.

                              Alexander decided to ford the Jhelum by night. He spent most of his time and ingenuity trying to confuse Porus. Every night fires were lit, with lots of noise and bustle. Porus took these seriously at first, but soon they were looked upon with disregard.

                              For his assault at Jhelum, Alexander planned to have a larger part of his army stay at the base camps near the place in Haranpur where he was planning to ford. The king's pavilion would be pitched in a conspicuous position near the bank of the Jhelum. A certain officer would wear Alexander's cloak in order to, to quote Alexander,"give an impression that the King himself was encamped on that part of the bank".

                              But Alexander would really already be on his way to Jalapur. His force in Taxila, numbering 5,000 horse and at least 10,000 foot, would cross the river before dawn and advance to the southern bank on Porus' position.

                              Alexander had divided his army into two groups. Hephadestion, Demetrius, and Perdiccas, with more than half of the cavalry and three battalions of the phalanx, were to go down the Khyber to the Indus. They were ordered to take over all the places in their way be force or agreement. This group would also make the conditions right for crossing once they were at the Indus.

                              The second group consisted of three battalions of phalanx and some mercenary cavalry and infantry. It was to have the position between Haranpur and the Admana Island opposite the main ford, and only would cross when the Porus had attacked Alexander's army, and only then if no elephants were left behind. If he did not cross then, he could wait until he was sure that Porus was in retreat and Alexander victorious. Alexander would lead this group, and Cratereus would be second in command.

                              While the first group was doing what it was supposed to do, the second group planned to take a mobile column up the Chouskes River, to march through the hill country of Bajur and swat to reduce any enemy stronghold en route. It would also give cover to the left flank. The two forces would rendezvous and the Indus.

                              What Happened in the Battle
                              In this battle, Alexander made sure that whichever way he moved, Porus would be open for attack from the rear from either Alexander or Cratereus. His only possible defense would be to detach a strong but limited force that could destroy Alexander's assault group before it established a bridgehead. This would leave Porus in charge of Haranpur, making it nearly impossible for the Macedonians to ford there.

                              Alexander built up a turning force from the units of the Royal Squadron of the Companions and the cavalry divisions under Hephestion, Perdiccas, and Demetrius, the Guards Brigade, two phalanx battalions, who were commanded by Coenus and Cletus the White, archers, cavalry from Bactria and Turkestan, and a special force of Scythan horse archers. This force was 15,000-16,000 strong.

                              Alexander brought this turning force to the crossing point and went on the boats and rafts by about 3:00 a.m. on the assault morning. When dawn broke and the wind and rain was less violent, the turning force's flotilla was already sailing down the northern channel, still hidden by the woods of Admana. But when they passed beyond the western tip of Admana, Porus' scouts saw them and sounded the alarm. Messengers rode away at full speed to tell Porus.

                              When the messenger was away, Alexander came into shore and disembarked all of his forces, with his cavalry leading, and got clear of Admana. But then he realized that what he'd thought to be a river bank was really another long, narrow island. Alexander finally managed to find a fording spot, but it took several hours, and by then Porus knew all about it.

                              When Alexander finally got ashore Porus detached a force of 2,000 cavalry and 120 chariots, under the command of his own son, with orders to ride east with all possible speed and, if possible, to destroy the assault group before it was clear of the river. This attempt failed because it was too late. Porus was heavily outnumbered, and his son was no match for Alexander. After a brief skirmish, the Indians fled. They suffered 400 casualties, including Porus' son.

                              Finally, after the skirmish, Alexander's army engaged in a real battle with Porus. Porus sent the rest of his army, consisting of about 20,000 infantry, 2,000 horse cavalry, 130 elephant cavalry, and 180 chariots. For this battle, Porus chose a level, sandy plain, with no mud, where elephants and cavalry would have plenty of room.

                              Porus drew up his infantry in a wide central front, stationing an elephant every 100 feet to strengthen them. He then placed a flanking body of infantry on each wing, and then his cavalry with a full squadron of chariots masking them. The overall Indian battle line must have been nearer to four miles than three, and infantry made up at least two-thirds of it.

                              Alexander's plan for this battle was to if he launched his cavalry, Porus might well shift his right flank across to the left, thus weakening the right. For this part of the plan to work, two full cavalry divisions had to be hidden from the Indians until they committed themselves irrevocably to left flank usage. Then Coenus, who was in charge of these two divisions, was to circle Porus' right flank, out of sight, and wait for the battle to be joined on the opposite flank.

                              If Porus transferred right flank cavalry to feed the engagement, Alexander planned to have Coenus charge across behind enemy lines and take them in the rear or just engage them in ordinary fashion.

                              In the actual battle, Porus, from the howdah at the top of his war elephant, brought across his own right wing squadrons to deliver the knock out blow. This was just what Alexander wanted.

                              Alexander gave his phalanx battalion and the Guard Brigade instructions "not to engage until it was evident that the Indians, both horse and foot, had been thrown into confusion by the Macedonian cavalry".

                              Once he had asserted his plan, Alexander attacked at once. Mounted archers, numbering 1,000, launched against the Indian left, knocking out almost all Porus' chariots. This was a very useful softening process. Then Alexander charged at the head of his cavalry.

                              Porus soon brought out his right wing. After he had done this, Coenus, with two once-hidden cavalry divisions, at once broke cover and rode in pursuit. The Indians that were engaged against Alexander abruptly found that they had to fight a rear guard against Coenus, too.

                              The Macedonians' main trouble was the row of maddening, trumpeting elephants. Alexander dealt with them by encircling them. He let his archers pick of their mahouts, and then discharged a volley of javelins and spears into the most vulnerable parts of the elephants. But the elephants sometimes smashed the Macedonians, armor and all, and others found themselves impaled on an elephant's tusk. But the elephants also began to trample their own side, so there were especially heavy losses for Porus.

                              Porus led one last elephant charge himself. It was not a success. By then the Macedonians were learning how to deal with the elephants;they dodged them and relentlessly slashed and shot at them and their mahouts. Then the elephants decided that they had had enough and slowly began to back away.

                              When this happened, Alexander drew his ring of cavalry tighter round Porus' battered divisions, and signaled his Guards Brigade and phalanx to lock their shields and move up in solid mass.

                              The final part of this battle was total butchery, but the Macedonians would not give quarter. The Indian casualties were variously estimated at 12,000 and 23,000. Porus fought to the end, but when he saw that any more resistance would be futile he rode slowly off the battle field, weak from blood loss.

                              After the Battle
                              Alexander was anxious to save the great general(Porus)even though he was the enemy. He sent a diplomat after Porus to offer peace terms. Porus eventually dismounted from his elephant, and was brought to Alexander, weak and thirsty.

                              At Jhelum Alexander showed flexible resourcefulness never equaled by himself or another. This was shown in his brilliant disposition and his great strategy, but especially with how he coped with the terrible monsoon weather and the Indian war elephants. Alexander's men were well trained and disciplined, so they could deal with the elephants in relative calmness and did not question Alexander's orders. But the Macedonians' nerves were shaken, and nothing Alexander ever said or did could make them want to face elephants in battle again.

                              Later 326 B.C.(the year of Jhelum), Alexander returned to Jhelum. He sent reinforcements downstream. The actual invasion of India began in 327 B.C., but this was the most important battle of them all.
                              Any views I may express here are personal and certainly do not in any way reflect the views of my employer. Tis the rising of the moon..

                              Look, I just don't anymore, okay?

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                              • AH: I was referring to Ptolemy, Antiochus (sp?) etc. etc. who were a pretty competant bunch. A lot of great generals are brough pretty far down by incompetant lieutenants.

                                Heraclius also deserved a mention, he also fought against the persions (Sassanid dynasty this time) and won out despite some very long odds and with a really horrific starting position, pity about that whole marrying his niece and getting routed by the Arabs thing...
                                Stop Quoting Ben

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