Rugby - The game they play in heaven

[finbar]

Gee, I had a day away from the thread for work reasons. This cannot be allowed to happen again! I award myself a BLACK card!

I have to say, I find both those teams- Tri-Nations and World - quite bizarre. Who selected them? I mean to say, for crying out loud - Jonah Lomu??

Mark Ella? Not a shade on Larkham or Wilkinson surely? Finbar?

I'd still rank Ella ahead of Larkham, and I rank Larkham ahead of Wilkinson. That said, I find the whole business of trying to rate players from different eras against each other pretty futile in any sport. There are too many variables. For what it's worth, though, Mark Ella could do everything the incumbents do and more. The tragedy was that he retired early to escape the appalling Allan Jones, Wallaby coach of the time.

You sense the unbalanced hand of mainly SH voting in this all time team I think?

I think the bigger problem is that, patently obviously, none of the selectors for the World XV are older than 25. Given that it's a futile exercise anyway.

[NeoStar]

Originally posted by Havak
That all time team is truly bizarre - clearly voted for and compiled by vested interests. Nice to see Richards get the recognition he deserves but just one Englishman is simply ludicrous - and having a recent Aussie forward in the mix shows the 'selectors' involved here are pretty clueless too.

I have to say, I find both those teams- Tri-Nations and World - quite bizarre. Who selected them? I mean to say, for crying out loud - Jonah Lomu??

Bizarre seems to be the word. The selectors are independant and work for Rugby World magazine, the most respected rugby magazine in the world. Never read one myself.

It's different ... note this sort of thing is hard to do for personnal opinion differs with everyone. And as for Lomu, I suppose they wanted at least one player who was still in action.

Originally posted by Havak
Eales is a hell of a nice guy and a well rounded player but anyone who picked him specifically at lock over his English opponent from last year really needs their head examining big time.

Skill is the main factor - but as you said Eales is one hell of a nice guy and can come through under immense pressure (most famously to the heartbreak of the kiwis ). I think it's more debatable than it seems.

Originally posted by Havak
There is one question I’m itching to ask by the way Neostar, you do realise you lost the tri-nations don’t you???

Sad but true To be entirely honest (and don't quote me) we have had the thing for a long while and I can't really say we easily deserved it above NZ. I knew the glory days would slump for a while with Rod and Eales retiring (and such is happening) but the WC can (will) still turn out good for us. We have time.

[NeoStar]

Originally posted by Havak
How about one of you has a stab first though – and please don’t just write “the Wallabies” Neostar?

You asked for it Havak (sorry, some fellows have retired):


NeoStar's Mostly Current World XV
15. M Burke (Aus), 14. Campese (Aus), 13. Tait (Sco), 12. S Gibbs (Wal), 11. Lomu (NZ), 10. Mehrtens (NZ), 9. Gregan (Aus), 8. Brooke (NZ), 7. Back (Eng), 6. Pienaar (SA), 5. McBride (Ire), 4. Murray (Sco), 3. D Young (Wal), 2. Wood (Ire), 1. Noriega (Aus).

A (few) reserves:M Rogers, J Wilkinson, Owen Finegan, J Eales, Blanco (Fra)

EDIT - LDiCesare rightly pointed out that if Campo is there, Blanco should be in contention too. I make only that concession (and France should have someone). I told you this was hard...


BTW More on this Rugby World Magazine in relation to the World XV - published in 1960 and celebrating its 500th issue, announced a team incorporating who it considers to be the best players to have played the game in the past 42 years.

[LDiCesare]

Neostar, I feel sorry for you. You included a few NH players but 2 Welsh for one English and no French... Why are the Welsh currently trampled by both France and England one wonders.
Robinson (Eng) is probably the best full back right now. Campo! Then put Blanco too, please keep current players or who retired last year. Your wingers choice is certainly not mine. I can't say much who I would put there now, but I think the boks have a good winger can't remember his name). I don't know for the oter one. Centers should include Traille. He might not be the top now but he is already very very good and will improve. Considering O'Driscoll totally fooled the welsh and scot centers in the last tournament, he probably would be better there than either of your choices. I think Umaga should fit in somewhere too, as center or wing. Galthie is clearly superior to about everyone else as a scrum half. I will let someone else about the absence of English locks and propose better choices. In the front row, I think Hasan (Argentina and Agen) deserves a notion. I don't know for the other prop. I should see an England-France match to decide...

[Havak]

and I rank Larkham ahead of Wilkinson

I don’t argue with that, but it’s very, very close and getting closer. And Wilko is five years younger. If he stays injury free Wilko will surpass Stephen I have no doubt. The lad is an immense talent and being protected well (he plays for a useless club so gets plenty of rest).

The tragedy was that he retired early to escape the appalling Allan Jones, Wallaby coach of the time.

These situations truly are tragic. I saw Neil Back frozen out of the England side during his prime thanks to Jack Rowell (now back at Bath – and they truly deserve each other!). That was tragedy too because Neil is superb now but ten years ago he was absolutely awesome.

I think the bigger problem is that, patently obviously, none of the selectors for the World XV are older than 25. Given that it's a futile exercise anyway.

I had thought this myself too – but then it amazes me Deano got it having retired totally five years ago?

I think it's more debatable than it seems.

I was never suggesting that he wasn’t a great player – he was. But the bottom line is the better lock is Johnson – better in the engine room, better in the lineout, easily the equal as a ball carrier. Not so great at kicks at the posts admittedly. It’s more clear cut than you think. The pressure issue definitely isn’t as significant as you think either – Jonno has of course carried off a test series victory in South Africa which I’m sure John would have loved to do. As captain of England Martin faces pressure cookers you probably wouldn’t believe – you should see the atmosphere as an England side runs out in Wales or in Paris.
Look Finbar will already be upset so I had better stop soon – but you might be surpised to find Johnson has played significantly over twice the number of first class matches Eales did in his career (when Johnson took the Lions to RSA in 97 he had already played over 40 times that season!) – and he is still there and still really at the peak of his powers. On the flip side of that Eales to my mind ducked out too early – he should be leading you into RWC 03. I have heard and dismissed the argument he has nothing left to prove – he never beat either England or NZ in a world cup competition in the Professional era – that leaves a massive question mark over his achievements to my mind, and should have provided ample incentive to play on?
Having said all that if I was building an invitation side I’d would put both men down first on the team sheet.

but the WC can (will) still turn out good for us. We have time.

Yep you won the tri-nations in 2000 and 2001 and deserved it fully both times (once again, for emphasis, I’m not anti-Aussie rugby per se). But New Zealand look stronger to me at this time – it was their tactics that lost in Sydney more than anything wasn’t it? (“kicking the pill away”).

The world cup is wide open – you have to be favourites as home advantage is a massive thing. I’ll check the draw but I hope you have to face either New Zealand or England to be able to win it – a victory without that is hollow indeed. France could be an awesome test but it depends which side they get out of bed – in the semi in 99 they got out the right side, in the final they didn’t get out at all!

Interesting side. I the same spirit here is my current invitational XV (if I were doing a world XV French players would be involved – I’m looking only at UK-SANZAR here).

Havak's Current Invitational XV
15. J Robinson (Eng), 14. A Healey (Eng), 13. T Umaga (NZ), 12. W Greenwood (Eng), 11. B Tune (Aus), 10. S. Larkham (Aus), 9. Gregan (Aus), 8. S Quinell (Wales), 7. N Back (Eng), 6. R Hill (Eng), 5. Chris Jack (NZ), 4. M Johnson (Eng), 3. P Vickery (Eng), 2. Wood (Ire), 1. T Smith (Sco).

A (few) reserves from which I would pick my seven subs: Corry (Eng), Roberston (NZ), MCCaw (NZ), G Smith (Aus), D Herbert (Aus) A Mauger (NZ), D Luger (Eng), L Moody (Eng), B Kay (England), G Murphy (Ire), G Rowntree (Eng), R Howley (Wal), B O’Driscoll (Ire), S Taylor (Sco).

I am bound to have overlooked someone. And yes there are no Boks deliberately – I would not currently pick any. I might have kept some of your choices if they were still playing.

I prefer the Aussie half backs to the Kiwi ones myself. The front row would have been the Lions front row if Vickery had been fit – I can’t in all good conscience choose any SANZAR front rower. Jack gets in because I knew none of you would accept the real second row of two Englishmen.

Okay Finbar and Caligastia – can we have your teams?

[Havak]

Incidentally LDiCesare please note I didn't look at french playeers for this squad - I used it simply to pointout to them where Brits would displace Aussies and Kiwis.

There would be several French in my world XV of course.

[LDiCesare]

Incidentally LDiCesare please note I didn't look at french playeers for this squad

I noticed. You had to leave a few SH lads in.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by NeoStar
we have had the thing for a long while

You call 2 years a long while?? I would say Oz have had the Bledisloe Cup for a long while, but not the Tri-nations.

Originally posted by NeoStar
The lad is an immense talent and being protected well (he plays for a useless club so gets plenty of rest).

How will playing for a useless club and getting plenty of rest help him to develop his skills?

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
I don’t argue with that, but it’s very, very close and getting closer. And Wilko is five years younger. If he stays injury free Wilko will surpass Stephen I have no doubt.

But surpass him how? They're different players with different strengths. I only rank Larkham higher because (and I haven't seen a massive amount of Wilkinson outside our Tests) he seems to have more skills options available. But, ultimately, I suspect they will always be different players.

These situations truly are tragic. I saw Neil Back frozen out of the England side during his prime thanks to Jack Rowell (now back at Bath – and they truly deserve each other!). That was tragedy too because Neil is superb now but ten years ago he was absolutely awesome.

Ella - and a number of others - quit early because Alan Jones' coaching method was basically to divide the squad, play favourites, and harangue. It worked, briefly and spectacularly, but at great overall cost.

I had thought this myself too – but then it amazes me Deano got it having retired totally five years ago?

Who knows? As I said, I think the whole exercise is futile.

Look Finbar will already be upset so I had better stop soon

I checked the calendar. It was about time for a Jonno-fest. I'm not rising to any of the several paras of bait.

But New Zealand look stronger to me at this time – it was their tactics that lost in Sydney more than anything wasn’t it? (“kicking the pill away”).

They are stronger this time. My view was that they kicked the pill away too much. (They used the same tactics they used in the appalling, arctic conditions in Christchurch, where the tactics were appropriate; while in Sydney, apart from a strong wind, the conditions were perfect for attacking rugby) It wasn't a case of their tactics costing them the match as much it was their tactics making - in my view - the job harder because you can't score if you ain't got the pill. But it was their choice. If it cost them the match it's their bad luck, but there's obviously no way of knowing.

Oh, and Andrew Mehrtens, who blamed ref Andre Watson for the Sydney loss, saying Watson should have been ashamed of his performance, has finally been cited for his stupid outburst.

I’ll check the draw but I hope you have to face either New Zealand or England to be able to win it – a victory without that is hollow indeed. France could be an awesome test but it depends which side they get out of bed – in the semi in 99 they got out the right side, in the final they didn’t get out at all!

I know it's Friday, Havak, but pur-leeeeeeeeze! A team that wins a comp - and, on the way, through no fault of its own, doesn't end up facing certain other teams because the certain other teams weren't good enough to make it through - enjoys a hollow victory?

Havak's Current Invitational XV
15. J Robinson (Eng), 14. A Healey (Eng), 13. T Umaga (NZ), 12. W Greenwood (Eng), 11. B Tune (Aus), 10. S. Larkham (Aus), 9. Gregan (Aus), 8. S Quinell (Wales), 7. N Back (Eng), 6. R Hill (Eng), 5. Chris Jack (NZ), 4. M Johnson (Eng), 3. P Vickery (Eng), 2. Wood (Ire), 1. T Smith (Sco).

I'm having to work from memory with most of the NH players, but I would probably only make one change to that lot. Quite honestly, I would have Stirling Mortlock in place of A. Healey and my opinion is genuine, and in no way related to any other discussions in our threads about A. Healey. Healey is quick and has skills; Mortlock is quick, very strong, a line-breaker, and a great tackler. I don't think you've seen enough of him this season to realise how he has developed.

I'm possibly also tempted to suggest McCaw in place of one of the flankers, but my memory of your incumbents isn't good enough.

BTW, who's your goalkicker?

Okay Finbar and Caligastia – can we have your teams?

I've amended your team.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Havak
Okay Finbar and Caligastia – can we have your teams?

Sure-

Caligastia's Current Invitational XV
15. B. Russell (SA), 14. M. Rogers (Aus), 13. T Umaga (NZ), 12. W Greenwood (Eng), 11. P. Bernat-Salles (Fra), 10. Mehrtens (NZ), 9. B. Kelleher (NZ), 8. S. Robertson (NZ), 7. J. Van Neikerk (SA), 6. O. Finegan(Aus), 5. Chris Jack (NZ), 4. M Johnson (Eng), 3. P Vickery (Eng), 2. R. McCaw (NZ), 1. T Smith (Sco).

[Havak]

You had to leave a few SH lads in.

One or two.

How will playing for a useless club and getting plenty of rest help him to develop his skills?

It isn’t about skills – it’s about avoiding injury and burnout. He will not reach his potential if he burns out at 25. Our top players are exceeding 40 first class games every season. It’s way too much rugby and it takes massive toll on the bodies. Even with NPC I doubt the top kiwi players are playing that much rugby?

But surpass him how? They're different players with different strengths.

Well for a start he should still be playing when Larkham is retired so that certainly surpasses him right?
Seriously though Wilko’s kicking game has always been better though I’m not denying Larkham vision and passing is superior. Wilko continues to improve though – those aspects of his game are getting better. He makes some beautiful clean breaks these days as well, and he is immensely strong – you should see him make a tackle. He is one of a new mould of fly half for us – not the old type who kicked the pill to the corners all the time.

It worked, briefly and spectacularly, but at great overall cost.

Is Jones still alive and does he still believe he was right despite evidence to the contrary? If so he and Jack Rowell should get on like a house on fire.

I'm not rising to any of the several paras of bait.

Okay okay – just watch the guy in the autumn and give me your assessment. I’ll accept you verdict after you have done so. Even is you don’t rate him I’ll accept…that there’s no hope for you.

I still don’t know why you have such trouble with this – the guy is one of the very best ever pure and simple, and the latest in a long long line of super English locks. They have always been our strength, and even when the team is fairly poor we have generally had solid locks.

has finally been cited for his stupid outburst.

I’m very pleased to hear this actually. He was out of order. Can we expect Gregan to be similarly cited for his overt criticism of the citing officials and committee. Exactly the same deal to my mind – he should have kept his mouth firmly closed?

A team that wins a comp - and, on the way, through no fault of its own, doesn't end up facing certain other teams because the certain other teams weren't good enough to make it through - enjoys a hollow victory?

Oh very nice try. Lets look at what I said again shall we. I mentioned the France you played in the final bore no resemblance to the one that beat the All Blacks. I said I hope that if you win next year you will have to face England or the All Blacks – what could be the number one and two ranked teams at that time – to gain a sense of achievement. So where exactly did I call your RWC 99 win a hollow victory then?

I don't think you've seen enough of him this season to realise how he has developed.

Probably true, however “quick, very strong, a line-breaker, and a great tackler” describes Healey perfectly. The fact he generally breaks the line by avoiding the tackle rather than breaking it might be the difference? So really I need to see them on the same field to judge?

I'm possibly also tempted to suggest McCaw in place of one of the flankers, but my memory of your incumbents isn't good enough.

He is very, very close to so doing even for me. Hill is Finnegan without the faults and a little more skill. Backy is George Smith but with ten years more experience and guile (not pinged so often).

BTW, who's your goalkicker?

Whoops! Well it’s not Jonno you will be pleased to hear. I was aiming for the Barbarians style - win through scoring tries. You are not buying that? Okay, well believe it or not Healey can take those duties at a stretch – but his distance is limited.
Okay, right, out goes Larkham and in comes Wilko – that sorts the kicking properly (I believe he is better than Merhtens in terms of success ratio)?

Just caught your side Caligastia - Bernat-Salles - hell yes. We perhaps ought to do a new XV with frenchmen fully considered (Galthie and Pelous need serious consideration). But tell me that isn't McCaw the loose forward at hooker???

The South African openside is fast and strong but he is not yet good enough to displace Backy for me. I don't know the Bok fullback - thats isn't the lad who played there against Australia is it?

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Havak
Just caught your side Caligastia - Bernat-Salles - hell yes. We perhaps ought to do a new XV with frenchmen fully considered (Galthie and Pelous need serious consideration). But tell me that isn't McCaw the loose forward at hooker???

Oops, my mistake, Ill have to do a re-shuffle.

The South African openside is fast and strong but he is not yet good enough to displace Backy for me. I don't know the Bok fullback - thats isn't the lad who played there against Australia is it?

Yep.

[Caligastia]

Caligastia's (amended) Current Invitational XV
15. B. Russell (SA), 14. M. Rogers (Aus), 13. T Umaga (NZ), 12. W Greenwood (Eng), 11. P. Bernat-Salles (Fra), 10. Mehrtens (NZ), 9. B. Kelleher (NZ), 8. S. Robertson (NZ), 7. J. Van Neikerk (SA), 6. R. McCaw (NZ), 5. Chris Jack (NZ), 4. M Johnson (Eng), 3. P Vickery (Eng), 2. Wood (Ire), 1. T Smith (Sco).

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar
As I said, I think the whole exercise is futile.

You are quite right Finbar, the said exercise is more than futile, in my own opinion it's even pointless.

Jonnah Lomu can be a tremendous attacker, when its team mate accidentally give him the ball, but he is certainly not the best number 11 player, his defensive skills and imagination should dramatically improve before he could be ranked as the top player.

[Havak]

Fair comments there Tamerlin.

I'm just sitting here smiling that Caligastia's revised side booted another Aussie out.

Be interesting to see how the autumn internationals affect this dream team. I'll be watching the Bok fullback closely - and comparing the Bok openside to Backy and McCaw to our Hilly too.

Caligastia might like to look carefully at our full back - we have never had such a dynamic attacking player in that position as young Mr Robinson.

A couple of links to cheer Finbar up over what is a long weekend in England (bank holiday).

Legend to retire

the boys are crocked

I have no doubt we will lose the orange cup tomorrow.