Bus bombing in northern Israel

[Eli]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
We can answer this by asking the following question: if a person of non-Jewish ethnic origin, who was born in a Christian background for example, was to convert to Judaism, would they then be given favourable status for moving to Israel, Israeli citixenship etc?

Yes.

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by Eli
Yes.

I'm sorry, I don't believe this for one second. I personally know ethnic Jews who have emigrated to Israel but are atheists, so they are most certainly not Jews in the religion sense. So on what basis were they admitted?

To be fair though, I don't know of any examples of people who have been refused entry into Israel for race reasons. Anyone else?

[Eli]

You asked if people who arent Jews ethnically convert to Judaism get all the priviliges, the answer is yes. I dont see how it has anything to do with ethnic Jews who have emigrated to Israel but are atheists.

[DaShi]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Rogan Josh

I think both sides of the Israeli conflict are despicable.

First of all there is Irael istelf. I think the thing that pisses me off most is their implicit racism. 'Jews' are encouraged to come to Israel and become citizens, setting up these settlements in the disputed territories etc. But what is a Jew? Is it a catagorisation of belief or of race?

We can answer this by asking the following question: if a person of non-Jewish ethnic origin, who was born in a Christian background for example, was to convert to Judaism, would they then be given favourable status for moving to Israel, Israeli citixenship etc? I severely doubt it!

That's not an argument.

[quote]
But does anyone know for sure? What if it was an arab from the west bank who suddenly declared themselves a Jew? /[quote]

No, they don't. No argument.

But if this preference is not based on religion, it must be based on race, which surely is racism. I find this very hard to reconcile with the support Israel gets from the US. The US seems very keen to outwardly oppose any form of racism in the world (and to them for it) but they continue to support Israel...

But you didn't prove your assumptions, therefore your conclusion must be flawed.

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by Eli
I dont see how it has anything to do with ethnic Jews who have emigrated to Israel but are atheists.

I would have thought that this example implies that it is not religion which entitles one to access, since these people do not conform to the Jewish religion.

And if the reason is not religion, what is it?

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by DaShi


That's not an argument.



But you didn't prove your assumptions, therefore your conclusion must be flawed.

I am not sure that this is worth replying to but....

Would you care to tell me why it 'is not an argument' and for that matter what it 'is not an argument' for?

[Eli]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh


I would have thought that this example implies that it is not religion which entitles one to access, since these people do not conform to the Jewish religion.

And if the reason is not religion, what is it?

It's religion or race/ethnicity/whatever.

When my family came to Israel, no one asked us in what god we believe. We just had to show documents proving we are Jews.

Also, during the 90s tens if not hundreds of thousands of non-Jews came to Israel only because they had Jewish relatives. So practically you can be a Christian non-Jew and still come to Israel.

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by Eli
When my family came to Israel, no one asked us in what god we believe. We just had to show documents proving we are Jews.

Also, during the 90s tens if not hundreds of thousands of non-Jews came to Israel only because they had Jewish relatives.

Do these statements not prove my conjecture? That certain ethnicities are given preferential treatment in Israel? Is this not, by definition, racism?

[Sirotnikov]

Rogan - certain ethnicities are given preferential treatment upon entry to Israel.

Just as happens in entry to Germany, Poland and Russia.

Entry to the USA however, is dependant on your social status, which isn't at all more just.

[Ecthy]

I was afraid when I heard on the car radio there was a bombing in Northern Israel... and while it being in Safed doesn't make it better for the victims, it still had me calm down... is this just an example for me being cynical and without respect for human life? Glonk, drake?

[Sirotnikov]

Rogan -first of all DaShi is correct - you are using your opinions to to prove yourself.

Second - Who exactly do you think will be admitted to a future Palestinian country? Those of the Palestinian ethnicity.

So, using your own logic - why support the creation of yet another racist ethnicity?


See - the problem is that you spread your universalism to people who don't care much for it. Learn to live with it. There are different ethnicities in the world, and some want to live apart from everyone else.

[Sirotnikov]

Ecth - I know - it's really bad.

But when a terract happens in the settlements, or it's a shooting spree, or it has very little or no dead - I usually don't feel very bad about it.

I know it's sick. But you have to survive mentally. So you build yourself a wall of emotions, and hope that it won't last long.

I used to get very very sad from every exposion. Immensely sad. I can't cope with being sad 24/7.

Frankly - there's another thing which I'm ashamed of. Very very much ashamed of.

When there was a terract in Tel-aviv and the only ones killed were foreign workers - when i first heard it - felt relieved.

But then I felt utterly disgusted by the fact that I was relieved. I feel ashamed of it till this day. I mean, it's part of my mantra, that you care about your nation first and others later - but still - these people are in much worse ocndition that most killed Israeli.

They are poor - they support families thousands of miles away.

I can still comfort myself in the fact that I never made that distinction for Israelis - be they jew, russian, black or arab.


But basically -yes, I'm as sad as this is close to me. When it's not close - I'm not very sad.

You simply can't survive otherwise.

I remember several times I haven't slept and almost had mental breakdowns from all of this.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh


Do these statements not prove my conjecture? That certain ethnicities are given preferential treatment in Israel? Is this not, by definition, racism?

No they don't prove it. You are using different terms and switching back and forth between them. Jews (at least before mixing with other peoples after the Romans kicked them out of Israel) and Palestinians are the same race. They are Semetic or if you don't consider Semites a race then they are both Caucasion. Either way they are the same race. So racism can not be involved.

Jews are more of an Ethnic group. They have a common background based on ancestry and religion even if they no longer practice the religion. Much of Jewish food for instance is shaped by the taoos of the Jewish religion. Even atheist Jews eat gifeltfish. (however its spelled)

Call it ethnocentrism if you need a label.

[Eli]

Ethnocentrism doesnt sound wrong enough, right Rogan?

[Rogan Josh]

Heh.... now you are quibbling about the exact definitions of the word 'race'. Don't you think that is missing the point somewhat?

I believe that people should be treated fairly no matter what their skin colour of background culture is. It seems that I am in the minority....