Kaliningrad

[Heresson]

A propos French discussions and its unique politics in Europe. As You know EU forces us to close our eastern borders, and showed no mercy when we asked them to make it easier for our Ukrainian and Lithuanian allies
to cross the border even now. The question is city of Kaliningrad, earlier Koenigsberg alias Królewiec.
It's Russian enclave between Poland and Lithuania,
with access to Baltic sea, a great military base. When Poland and Lithuania will enter EU, it will be enclaved in it. Russia knew about it since a long time, but only now it styrted discussing it. The enclave lives mostly of little trade with Poland, and is more and more dependant from German and Polish economy. There is a kind of separatism there and Russia afraids that EU would try to vassalise it.
Anyway it demands "corridors" through Lithuania and/or Poland, but agrees not on any visas, even though EU promised it cheap, or even free of charge and accessible visas, a thing that they had no chance to offer Lithuania
or Ukraine earlier. And now mr Chirac had a trip to Russia
and, to get a worthy contract, stated that visas for Kaliningrad citizens would offend their honour and stuff.
The wuestion is; if a Kaliningradian would like to travel to Russia through lets say USA, will it offend his honour too?
Or if i'd like to go to another Polish city crossing entire planet, should I be offended that the entire planet doesn't belong to my state?

[Solly]

I agree.

[Sprayber]

either give Kaliningrad to Lithuania or give Lithuania to Russia.

[Heresson]

Even if Lithuania was Russian, it would be enclave too...
But Byelorussia is is half-union with Russia...
The only thing that can be done is to give Królewiec back to Poland, of course.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Heresson
Even if Lithuania was Russian, it would be enclave too...
But Byelorussia is is half-union with Russia...
The only thing that can be done is to give Królewiec back to Poland, of course.

I was just kidding. I doubt that Russia is going to give anything back to anyone. Have they gave the Kuril Islands to Japan yet?

[Serb]

Kaliningrad?
Who was calling for me?
Oh it's Heresson. Who else could start it?
Keep whinning boy, it will change nothing

The wuestion is; if a Kaliningradian would like to travel to Russia through lets say USA, will it offend his honour too?

No. Kaliningrad don't have a common border with USA. And only an idiot will chose the way through USA to reach Russia.

Or if i'd like to go to another Polish city crossing entire planet, should I be offended that the entire planet doesn't belong to my state?

You are twisting the facts Heresson. You being in any Polish city could easily reach any other Polish city freely, without any visas. It is your right- the right to movement freely in borders of your country.
After Baltic states will be included in EU, the citizens of Kaliningrad will lose this right-and this is what offend them, that they will lose their right to move freely in every city of ITS OWN COUNTRY.
Why should they lost this right?
It is EU desire to include more members, but why other countries should suffer because of this decision?

P.S. Keep dreaming. It will remain Russian territory forever.

[Buck Birdseed]

I find your reasoning extremely suspect, Heresson. There are no people whose livelihood depends on travelling to Russia via the US. The existing state of being with an excemption has resulted in a lot of people using it as something entirely natural. Getting rid of it would be like banning smoking; probably intellectually correct but it just wouldn't work.

Plus there are existing exceptions... the nordic passport union is still in effect, by the inclusion of non-EU country Norway in Schengen. Something similar could (should?) be included for Kaliningrad.

Or Schengen, which is damn ****ing nasty to begin with, could be scrapped altogether.

And it's an exclave, not an enclave, dammit!

[moomin]

So what's your beef with Schengen, Snappy? Don't like open borders in Europe, do you?

[Buck Birdseed]

There are advantages, I admit. Especially for foreign tourists travelling to multiple european countries. (Let's face it, inter-border passport showing was never much of a hassle in the first place...)

What I've got against it is the clear link to a more restrictive policy on visas and immigration from third-world countries. The Transporter Responsibility clause may well be the most evil law passed in the past few years...

[moomin]

Originally posted by Snapcase
What I've got against it is the clear link to a more restrictive policy on visas and immigration from third-world countries.

But this follows naturally from the basic tenets of the welfare state, Snap. Which I seem to recall you're a big fan of? Europe can't uphold it's expensive social programs for millions of potential welfare cases, so the natural response is to keep them out - and if you don't like that, I suggest you start looking at a country that has a way more successful integrational record than any European one - the USA.

Blaming this on Schengen is a severe case of shooting the messenger, you know.

The Transporter Responsibility clause may well be the most evil law passed in the past few years...

Oh please. In Sweden we have the nuclear power thought-contol law, which is downright medieval, and in Britain you have Jack Straw's RIP act, which is downright fascist (or commie, if that makes you feel better). The TR law has nothing on any of these in terms of sheer evil.

[Alinestra Covelia]

The one and only time I got in a fight whilst in China was when I was hanging around my housemate's Russian pal Grigori and I started singing the Soviet National Anthem. Grigori was a Russian who wholeheartedly believed that Kaliningrad was doing no particular good, and should be sold off at the highest price to Poland or Lithuania.

Myself, I still adhere to the watchword "no territory is ever completely useless". Civ3 and its amazing disappearing/reappearing resources has only strengthened my feelings.

[Serb]

Please no offence, but I think that Grisha is jackass.
And more probably he is not Russian.

[Heresson]

Damn! Accidentally I lost all I wrote here. Now I have to write it all again...

[Serb]

Sh*t happens
No doubt it was long and fascinating speech.

[Heresson]

Here it goes again;
Snapscase: mprimo, Russia wo0n't agree on any special rights for Kaliningradians only. Secundo; Kaliningradians have a little to do with rest of Russia. Most of them never visited any other region of it.
Serb;
In fact I can't movbe freely to Polish cities, to Berlin, to Opawa, to Kiezmark, to Lwów, to Grodno, to Wilno and to Królewiec for example... , but except for those I can,
but Poland doesn't have exclaved territories or colonies.
Russians have full right to move freely in between their borders. But Poland and Lithuania, if You ahve forgotten,
are not iin your borders. You are free to use sea or air way.
And tell me, is Turkey demanding a corridor through Georgia, Russia, Ukraine, Romania and Bulgria to Thrace?
Or Denmark through Sweden, Finland, Russia, Byelorus and Poland to Jutland? Kaliningrad is a bit more distant. Your pain! You should have thought about that when You were taking it after ww2.