Immigrants

[Monk]

If some immigrant to the US doesn't want to learn English, let him. As long as the wast majority of the rest of the country doesn't addapt and learn [input obscure language spoken by less than 10K humans] it's his problem.

If he's a Turk he could move to Kreuzberg.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
There's nothing more un-American than telling people to get out if they disagree with how things are...

Ha! Ha! Ha! Do they teach American history where you live Boris? Ever here of the "Alien and Sedition Acts", or the "Know Nothings"?

[S. Kroeze]

Originally posted by Loif
Well Canada wouldn't exist without immigrants. Neither would most other countries on the face of God's green earth. I say we should welcome immigrants and not tell them that they have to conform to what we believe in. As long as they are obeying the law of the country that they immigrate to, why should this be a problem? Are we so worried that we may be assimilated into their culture that we need to stamp it out? Humans never cease to amaze me.

I would like to make some remarks:

I am living in one of the most densely populated countries in the world. Nevertheless we accept about ~20,000 immigrants on average every year. (this number is just an intelligent guess; please don't attack me on the accuracy of the number)
The population of my country would be stable or decrease without immigration.
Since the country is clearly overpopulated -about ~16 million people are living in an area a bit larger than Maryland (~14,000 sq.mi.)- most inhabitants of this country would prefer to allow less immigrants.

Neverthless more immigrants are on average admitted than to most other European countries, though most of these countries are larger and less densely populated.
Most are admitted because they claim to be political refugees, though one estimates that about 80% of them have in fact come here for economic reasons.
(I don't blame them for it, but it is useful to acknowledge the truth)

Holland and the Netherlands have a tradition of tolerance but we have begin to recognise that too much tolerance in the past was not a wise policy.

Immigrants who do not speak the Dutch language well do not have the slightest chance to get a job, so they remain a isolated group dependent on social security.
As a result, many children of these immigrants are also deprived and not well-integrated.

Now conditions have deteriorated so strongly that we have "white" schools for the children of Dutch parents, and "black" schools for the children of immigrants.
This is NOT the official policy of the government -on the contrary- but Dutch parents tend to avoid schools with too many children with a language deficiency.

Unemployment, poverty and isolation of many immigrant groups have resulted in increased crime and violence, which traditionally were quite low.

Some immigrants bring many customs and ideas with them that are completely in defiance of Dutch tolerance.
In fundamentalist mosques (fortunately only a minority of all mosques) it was almost daily practice that an imam would thunder against homosexuality, equal rights for men and women and the wickedness of Western society.
So violence against gay people has increased tremendously, though we were the first country to validate gay marriage.

The women of fundamentalist groups were often locked up in their home, forced to wear a headcloth, married off at a very young age, circumcised etc.
And because of the isolation of these women in particular, they remained completely dependent on their husbands. So in part this oppression remains hidden, because these women will not speak out, even when they would have mastered the language.

Yes, fortunately there are a lot of immigrants who prosper, so we shouldn't be too pessimistic about the future.

Nevertheless it is my opinion that immigrants should learn the language of the country as soon as possible, in their own interest.
Nor should the preaching of hatred be allowed!
(it is actually forbidden but most Dutchmen do not understand Chinese, Arabic etc,)

I even think it should be tried to discourage segregation in education. Education is vital for success in Dutch society; our economy hardly needs badly educated workers, since the services sector are the dominant part of the economy.

My main message: it is in the interest of the immigrants to be forced -to a certain degree- to adapt to Dutch society.

[Heresson]

I don't have anything against any immigration until it counts in permiles (promiles? whatever) not percents of population.

[DanS]

"Well there are people who have lived in Puerto Rican communities all their life here in NYC who dont even know that being born here makes them american citizens."

Being born in Puerto Rico makes you a U.S. citizen, dufus. The only reason a Puerto Rican would be an alien is so that they don't have to pay federal taxes.

[sparkplug]

Re: Immigrants

If Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet.

The inevitable ''love it or leave it'' arguement. Well, if you don't like the fact that I am going to continue living here, maybe you should get the **** out.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


Ha! Ha! Ha! Do they teach American history where you live Boris? Ever here of the "Alien and Sedition Acts", or the "Know Nothings"?

Of course, I was speaking in the "ideal" sense, not in the nefarious actions of anti-immigrant xenophobes of the past.

[Dan Severn]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov nefarious actions of anti-immigrant xenophobes.

Sorry, that phrase reminds me of Snidely Whiplash...

I know

Irrelevant

[Sikander]

Immigrants must be:

1) Legal

2) Willing to obey the other laws of the country

3) Tolerant of the existing society and subcultures

4) Willing to learn the official language as soon as possible

5) Willing and able to contribute to the economy and general welfare of the state


If these conditions are met and upheld, then I have no problem with eventually granting citizenship to the immigrant. If not, then they can go home willing or not.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by S. Kroeze
I am living in one of the most densely populated countries in the world.

Your country is densely populated?

You need to get out more often. Visit some of the cities in Asia and Africa. I highly recommend Tokyo and Hong Kong.

[The Pioneer]

Loif, this kind of thought is ever more dominant among certain people across the world. Problem as I see it is that feeling has been getting stronger with time.


I would have to agree with Kroeze on this one. I am an immigrant myself and I think it's a matter of respect and decency towards a country and its people to at least speak/read the language and have some basic idea about its history. This helps the immigrant directly as he will be able to find a job, communicate, etc. In an indirect way it helps the society and the country itself because in the long term there is more tention between groups of people rather than some kind of integration or harmony between the people. History is also very important and should not be forgotten, it gives you an idea of why the country taht has taken you in is the way it is.

I know from my own experience both here in Germany but also in the States that people that saty within their own group, culture, lenguage, etc. tend to dislike (often strongly) a lot of the things about the country. Believe me I heard the most absurd and amazing things about how ****ty USA or Germany is! Upon questioning them why they do not just go back where they came from, they get a blank stare because they damn well know that they came by choice and because they were out of luck in their home countries and came here looking for greener pastures.

Another aspect of the matter is that a lot of them are actually miserable and do not make the most out of what the country has to offer. There are so many things that USA, Germany or other countries have to offer that can keep your interest for a long long time. As an example most people I know in the US have never really been anywhere, a lot of them do not even know what's in the immediate surroundings, their daily lifes go like work-home-work! There is no fun in that but in order to change that you would have to be able to accept that where you immigrated to is a different place than your own and that you will have to respect that and adjust that.

Now on the matter of the picture and the veil, the disrespect comes from the woman to the laws of the country, I am actually wondering what kind of picture she had up untiol now on her passport, green card or whatever other id she had up until then. Bottom line is that it beats its purpose to have a pic taken with a veil and as driving is a perogative and not a right she should banned from it if she doesn't want to.

So long...

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by The Pioneer

I know from my own experience both here in Germany but also in the States that people that saty within their own group, culture, lenguage, etc. tend to dislike (often strongly) a lot of the things about the country. Believe me I heard the most absurd and amazing things about how ****ty USA or Germany is!

A similar thing happens in Hong Kong. The whites come here to take high paying jobs and then they ***** and moan about the Chinese and the city. The vast majority of the expats here never make an effort to learn the language or understand the culture.

I've met Brits who were born in Hong Kong and cannot speak the local language.

Surprisingly, there is not that much resentment against these foreigners. The expats are often more racist than the locals.

The behaviour of the white immigrants in Hong Kong is quite different from my experience with immigrants in Canada where people make an effort to learn about their new home.

[Kropotkin]

Originally posted by S. Kroeze
Most are admitted because they claim to be political refugees, though one estimates that about 80% of them have in fact come here for economic reasons.
(I don't blame them for it, but it is useful to acknowledge the truth)

Yes, some of them move because of economical reasons. Although the estimates varies greatly as is expected. (after all there's some theoretical standpoints on migration that refutes the existance of anything but economic migration). The sad problem with this is that no matter the precentage those that move because of economic reasons but has to state political reasons to get in are more or less stuck in their new country. Otherwise they might migrate back and forth when it suits them and the countries economy instead of taking the welfare and get stuck.

I do belive the US did some kind of policy-change about that regarding mexican immigrants that had a positive effect. The netherlands wouldn't "suffer" that much if they became modern "Hollandgänger".

There's always a fear that eased regulations would mean a flood of immigration. There's a risk of that but at the same time these kinds of estimates are often greatly exaggerated. The years around 1990 people predicted a influx of at least 5 million from the former Soviet union. I think the real number landed on something between 0,5 - 1 million.

Some immigrants bring many customs and ideas with them that are completely in defiance of Dutch tolerance.
In fundamentalist mosques (fortunately only a minority of all mosques) it was almost daily practice that an imam would thunder against homosexuality, equal rights for men and women and the wickedness of Western society.

There could as well be christian wackos but they are non the less a minority. After all the immigrants in the netherlands are only 4,4% of the population (1996 figures) and that's not very high compared to many other European countries. Belgium had 9% the same year. Since many of these are not fundamentalists the problem of fundies is not really a important immigration problem imho. It can cause trouble but they can never "take over" in any way. That is not to say that it can't be a trouble but there's probably more problems with football-hooligans than fundies going after homosexuals.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Kropotkin
How long has the Puerto Ricans been there?

Dont know. It would have to be at least a generation though.

[Kropotkin]

Well, that's just sad. It hasn't anything with that racial thing the yanks are so found off? After all, the so called "******s" (or tribe of Shabazz if you ask the NoI) doesn't seem to be fully integrated yet and they have been there longer than most of the rest.

Unfortunaly such a thing as skincolour seems to damper a functional integration.