Immigrants

[Q Classic]

ok. this editorial has one good point:
1. immigrants, learn the language of the nation you immingrate into. otherwise, there will be no common interface between you and the government, nor between you and greater society. speak your language-- in fact, retain it, please-- but don't expect, nor ask, the government to make official government forms or other things in your language when they are not the official language.
in the case of america, learn english. you don't have to speak it well, but you need to know enough to get buy outside of your cultural enclaves. the government shouldn't have to translate license forms, tests, or citizenship exams into spanish, french, korean, nigerian, or whatever all language--
citizenship is something that you need to work for. if you're not willing to go halfway and at least learn the language, please, don't complain that you can't get things done.

the god stuff is crap. so is the move the hell out. i have no problem with ethnic enclaves, i have no problem with people not wanting to learn english. i'm cool with that.

i just think it's utterly ridiculous that we have to have official government forms translated into these languages for those who refuse to learn even the smallest bit of english.

wasn't some word like, oh, i don't know, integration, like, some big deal a few years ago?

and as for the driver's license thing, that's preposterous. it's for identification. and for identification, a face needs to be present, barring any other sort of secure id. if she volunteered for fingerprinting on the license, or retinal scanning, i'd have no problem. but if the license doesn't have either option, then she must have the face.

[Q Classic]

you know what the sad thing is?

usually, immigrants which want to become citizens and actually study for the citizenship exam...

they often know more about the us than native borns.

and even though most of those assimilate, they often also retain their own tongues and cultures.

[Bereta_Eder]

Re: Immigrants

Originally posted by Loif
This idea of America being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity.

First signs of fascism


In Greece: it is said too.

We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the language!

It's their choice if they learn the langauge or not. And the conseqeuecnes theirs too. You speaking english doesn' mean that others will have to do the same or that english will forever be the only language of the country.


In Greece: they all learn to speak Greek.

"In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented.

And in Byzantium God and the hierarchy was reignign supreme. That doesn mean that countries cannot evolve.
If what he says is true then Europe would have been stuck in the middle ages.

countries evolve from where they started sometimes for the better.

in Greece: we dont have this motto but noone cares either way. immigrants or not.

It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.

this is a matter of respecting cultures.

in Greece: there's a holy icon in classrooms but no immigrant has said anything till now. I imagine if one did there would be a huge "national" backlash though.

If Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet.

if they are citizens they have the right to want another flag

in Greece: it is the opposite. immigrants children want to carry the greek flag in parades but some greeks dont let them.

We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from.

some land of the free

in Greece: everyone becomes "greek" or stays in the outskirts of society its true.

This is OUR COUNTRY, our land, and our lifestyle. Our First Amendment gives every citizen the right to express his opinion and we will allow you every opportunity to do so. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about our flag, our pledge, our national motto, or our way of life, I highly encourage you to take advantage of one other great American freedom:

THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.

maybe they just came to make money so they dont care. if they ARE citizxens they have every right to speak their minds about anything

in Greece: there hasnt been such attempots by immigrants to question these things.

but thats maybe because we are far more considerate to both greeks and not greeks about these issues


example: in courts everyone has the right to swear on the bible or on his honour.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by DanS
Being born in Puerto Rico makes you a U.S. citizen, dufus. The only reason a Puerto Rican would be an alien is so that they don't have to pay federal taxes.

Thats not the point dufus.

The point is they are a community that choose to live apart from the rest of society, and outside the US system.

[DanS]

"The point is they are a community that choose to live apart from the rest of society, and outside the US system."

What are you talking about? They are inside the US system. They are Americans. They live in an American society. It just so happens that they speak Spanish primarily and like to live among Puerto Ricans. If in Puerto Rico, they live under a derivative of Spanish law.

This is no different than a Creole Louisianan who speaks bastard French and lives under a derivative of the Code Napoleon.

Or even the Amish, who speak Pennsylvania Dutch primarily.

[Verto]

I agree with what the editorial said, for the most part. I am tired of having people tell me that I shouldn't do this, or that this company shouldn't do that, because it might offend someone.

Some of you have said that they, the immigrants coming to America, have the right to speak their minds and have their own opinions, etc.

The same holds true to those who want American flags on their cars, but many people have said that the U.S. flag would offend people, and the flag should be a "private concern".

The story about the woman who kept her veil on during the License photo is absurd. The entire purpose of the photo is for identification, which is defeated by the veil.

Some of you have said that America can adapt; I say that immigrants can adapt.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by DanS
What are you talking about? They are inside the US system. They are Americans. It just so happens that they speak Spanish primarily and like to live among Puerto Ricans. If in Puerto Rico, they live under a derivative of Spanish law.

They dont have social security numbers, bank accounts or pay taxes. Doesnt sound like they are "in the system" to me.

This is no different than a Creole Louisianan who speaks bastard French and lives under a derivative of the Code Napoleon.

They live under US law, not a "derivative of the code napoleon". How is this comparable to puerto ricans living in NYC anyway??

Or even the Amish, who speak Pennsylvania Dutch primarily.

Actually the Amish are descended from germans. "Pennsylvania Dutch" is a popular but incorrect term.(Pennsylvania Dutch is actually Pennsylvania Deutsch, or German).They also have Welsh, English, Scottish, Swiss, and French ancestry.

[Bereta_Eder]

you are facing "problesm" that european coutnries such as france have faced long ago

lets take the veil for example



in french schools muslim girls would go woth their veils in class.


but the motto is liberte fraternite EGALITE

one uniform school system.

there was a big class about this because the school system of france wanted these girls to take off their veils in school.

their families siad that would be a huge offense to do

and so on and so forth

[DanS]

"They dont have social security numbers, bank accounts or pay taxes. Doesnt sound like they are "in the system" to me."

Where do you come up with this stuff? Puerto Ricans have social security numbers. Like I said, the only reason why they wouldn't want their location pinned down (through bank accounts) is so that they wouldn't have to pay federal taxes.

"They live under US law, not a "derivative of the code napoleon"

Yes, both US federal law and a derivative of the Code Napoleon. Just as Puerto Ricans live under US federal law and a derivative of Spanish law.

The point is, your definition of "US system" doesn't make any sense at all. Neither "US system" nor "US society" have anything to do with language.

"Actually the Amish are descended from germans. "Pennsylvania Dutch" is a popular but incorrect term."

It's what the Amish call it.

[drake]

I don't care if people choose to learn english or not. Fast food joints and other minimum wage type jobs need employees too.

The land of opportunity isn't the land of opportunity unless you do your part too......some have the un-fortunate mis-conception that they are owed something just by coming here.

RJ, you say "conform or die" in a mocking tone, yet you no doubt live an existance that is centered around conformity. A society cannot be successful without some degree of conformity. That is unless you think anarchy would work well??

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by DanS
Where do you come up with this stuff? Puerto Ricans have social security numbers. Like I said, the only reason why they wouldn't want their location pinned down (through bank accounts) is so that they wouldn't have to pay federal taxes.

Yes, Puerto Ricans generally have these things, but, as I said, there are those within their communities who dont because they dont even have a basic understanding of the world outside their community.

Yes, both US federal law and a derivative of the Code Napoleon. Just as Puerto Ricans live under US federal law and a derivative of Spanish law.

Whatever. I think we are getting off track here.

The point is, your definition of "US system" doesn't make any sense at all. Neither "US system" nor "US society" have anything to do with language.

Living within the US system means having a SS#, and paying income taxes, neither of which the isolated communities I am talking about not "all puerto ricans" participate in. English is the language spoken by the majority, so in the interests of having a common language, everyone who chooses to live here should learn to speak it.

It's what the Amish call it.

Check out amish history, you will find they are mostly descended from germans.

[DanS]

Let's leave aside the extraneous arguments, but suffice to say I lived among Amish for much of my life.

"English is the language spoken by the majority, so in the interests of having a common language, everyone who chooses to live here should learn to speak it."

What's this "interests of having a common language"? Sounds like the "good" as defined by Caligastia alone.

Further, even assuming your construct, a Puerto Rican could make a good argument that Spanish then should be taught to all English speakers. The "common language" would then be English and Spanish.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by DanS
Let's leave aside the extraneous arguments, but suffice to say I lived among Amish for much of my life.

Then you know that none of them speak dutch.

"English is the language spoken by the majority, so in the interests of having a common language, everyone who chooses to live here should learn to speak it."

What's this "interests of having a common language"? Sounds like the "good" as defined by Caligastia alone.

You dont see anything good about having a common language? At the very least, it unites a people and reduces the potential for misunderstandings.

Further, even assuming your construct, a Puerto Rican could make a good argument that Spanish then should be taught to all English speakers. The "common language" would then be English and Spanish.

No, that would be "common languages". Its a lot easier to concentrate on one language than two.

[DanS]

"Then you know that none of them speak dutch."

Yes. They speak Pennsylvania Dutch. It's what everybody in the U.S. calls the language. Trying to parse the name is silly.

"Its a lot easier to concentrate on one language than two"

There are a lot of countries out there that have no problems with it. If it's a matter of principle, then let's carry the argument to its logical conclusion.

You come to the U.S. and expect not to have to learn Spanish? How rude!

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by DanS
"Then you know that none of them speak dutch."

Yes. They speak Pennsylvania Dutch. It's what everybody in the U.S. calls the language. Trying to parse the name is silly.

Yes, I just thought you would be interested to know that it actually has nothing to do with dutch.

"Its a lot easier to concentrate on one language than two"

There are a lot of countries out there that have no problems with it. If it's a matter of principle, then let's carry the argument to its logical conclusion.

You come to the U.S. and expect not to have to learn Spanish? How rude!

I guess we wont agree on this one.