Language Extinction

[Victor Galis]

Yeah. We don't go around letting ancient buildings fall apart. Sure there are cases where destroying them and replacing them would be more efficient, but think of the history, man.

[Q Classic]

a lingua fraca is required for any form of communication across boundaries.

BUT, and i seriously mean this, cultural heritages are bound together with languages. you'd be hard pressed to find many concepts in east asian culture explained easily, simply, and elegantly in english, or any indoeuropean language, for that matter.

so i think, in the future, everybody should be bilingual for everyone's good: native and lingua fraca.

[Victor Galis]

Yeah, and just try to express a concept such as Wasserleicheaspirant as elegantly

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Caligastia


We actually agree because you are in support of a common language. I have nothing against people learning other languages, as long as there is a language that everyone can understand.

Of course, I think it's very useful.

But make no mistake. There is absolutely no use and no need for it for people living everyday lifes in their own countries.

It is useful for a small portion of populations that engage in communication with other countries on a regular basis.

Also we are talking about Europe and the US where english is the first choice language. In other parts of the world of course it's not the same.

Also about english being inefficient and unattractive. Well I cant speak about aesthetics that's a personal matter.

Inneficient I wouldn't say so.


But I think its biggest "power" is that the US is speaking it and that the US dominates (or at least has much power) in the global mass media oulets.

If US spoke Swahili most people in Europe would learn Swahili.

It is established. From now on, about the english langauge per se, I would say it's EASY. easy to learn.

I know some french linguisists who disagree and say it has too many exceptions etc.

Well a small greko like myself when I was learning foreign languages, I found english much more easy than french. But that could be just me.

It dpoesnt have to be a great language or the most efficient (who will judge that anyway) it has to be easy!!! and it has the US "backing" that's why it catches on.

Also it is transforming... as I say sometimes jikingly there are 3 genres of english in europe

american english (the kind you speak)
english.. english (the kind the english in Britain speak)

and european english (the kind of distrorted, violated english we europeans speak but they do the job )

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Victor Galis
Yeah, and just try to express a concept such as Wasserleicheaspirant as elegantly

One of the many reasons I love German is that you can get away with ramming as many words together as you want to form a brand new word! It's brilliant!

[Starchild]

Originally posted by Caligastia
That is an excellent point, and for this reason it is worth preserving the languages in some form (like on a computer), but to have people continue to speak it is not necessary.

Languages are tied into culture and life. A computer could never tell you what translation of a word feels the most "right". Take cultural expressions. "The pot calling the kettle black" for example. It's absolutely nonsensical unless your part of the culture and language. If you are part of it, a completely meaningless phrase suddenly gains meaning. How would a computer translate that into another language and still let it retain it's meaning?

[Victor Galis]

Exactly. You know you have learned a language when you begin to catch these connotations.


I disagree that people leading ordinary lives don't need to interact with the world at large that often. Sure, maybe not now, but someday. (Hey, we're all here at Apolyton and we're not from the same country).

Urge to learn Welsh rising...

[Bereta_Eder]

Victor, we are an international island

Most french talk in french forums, greeks in greek, italians in italian etc etc etc.

And it is not "necessairy" for our jobs or whatever to talk in Apolyton

necessity and repetition is what contitutes need and aptitude for being fluent or speak another language

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Starchild


Languages are tied into culture and life. A computer could never tell you what translation of a word feels the most "right". Take cultural expressions. "The pot calling the kettle black" for example. It's absolutely nonsensical unless your part of the culture and language. If you are part of it, a completely meaningless phrase suddenly gains meaning. How would a computer translate that into another language and still let it retain it's meaning?

There is no reason why these meanings cannot be recorded on a computer.

[Bereta_Eder]

What is interesting though is the level/amound of penetration of the english langauge in different european countries.

that would be very interesting to know.
I think all EU countries have foreign classes in primary school onwards. You can chose but most chose as first foreign langauge english.

But that dont meant much. if you dont use it, you lose it or at least you forget it temporarily.

i think the scandinavian countries have the biggest peneration of english language in their populations. Denmark has even made english its second OFFICIAL language.

(which means whetever dealings you have with the state of Denmark you have a RIGHt to do them also in english).

[Bereta_Eder]

About complete language extinction...

As mentioned, there are subtle nuances in each langauge. These can be primarily understood completely by the popel who actually speak that language. If those very same words are spoken to a person which has not been brought up in that linguistic environemnt the words might very well lose part of their subtle nuance and their meaning might very well be microscopically altered.

Thus the existance of a language and the peopel who speak it is necessairy for the continuation of existance (even in the... etheral plane for those who dont understand the language) of those subtle meanings. Which, mind you, may actually not exist in other languages.

Culture and langauge are indeed intraconnected.

In teh 18th century there was this philosophical trend which said that those who speak a certain language will in fact start THINKING one certain way.

This some times went to extremes.

As a side note, there was the proposition that the official langauge of the new born US was Greek. It was in the middle of that philosophical era that said if people start speaking Greek they will again be able to repeat the deeds of the ancient Greeks. It was also because you didnt want to be associated with your former masters. (Britain) It was ceremonial proposition if nothing else since your new born nation was speaking english anyway. How can 100.000 cowboys learn Greek in a sunday? Still there are very interesting texts about that.


While that philosophical trend was obviously ridiculous in its exageraton it nevertheless contained seeds of accurace. Namely that a language is one very important vehicle of expression of culture.

with one gone the other is lost too. and it may be unique.,

the "feelings"/"meanings" one word might conjure in one specific linguistic envoronment cannot be stored in a computer BTW. The vehicle for their interpretation can only be a person.

[Caligastia]

Thanks for the interesting posts paiktis22.

[Bereta_Eder]

My pleasure

[Al'Kimiya]

Originally posted by paiktis22
Communication was very difficult and I started to use Greek and I could actually communicate more easily since Latin derives from Greek and Italian derives from LAtin and there are a lot of words in common.

Latin does NOT derive from Greek, not anymore than English derive from Latin. Latin has borrowed lots of words from Greek though (as English has from Latin).

They both derive from the same ancestor though (Proto-Indo-European).

[Q Classic]

there's another reason why language is tied into culture. since language is an organic thing, growing and developing over time alongside a cultural group, often times the wisdoms and the concepts generated over many thousands of years find their ways embedded into the language.

for instance, in the korean language, there is a word for every single member of the family, depending on who you are in relation to that familial member-- girl calls older bro oppa, older sis unnyi, whereas boy calls older bro hyung, older sis nuna....
why would this be? it's simple. the korean culture tends to be focused a great deal on the confucian ethics of rank-- and thus, that cultural tradition finds itself a part of the language.
but the thing is, that's just a brief explanation. there are often connotations with how those words are used; for instance, it could be a grave insult to use one form of familial address during a certain time period, while a compliment in another.

you don't get that in many other languages; and thus, translations will usually miss all the intricasies of familial bonds.

that's one reason why culture and language are closely linked.