Europeans to use EU flag as a flag icon...

[Paris]

Originally posted by Roland
"354 years old to be exact. Look it up if you don't believe me."
I don't believe you and I won't look it up. If anything 1648 marks the birth of the modern territorial state, but not of the nation state.

In this case you have to believe DinoDoc

The building of a nation-state, "World History":
1648 AD: finds Europe at the End of the Thirty Years War and The Treaty of Westphalia.The war, which was mostly fought in Germany, resulted in the destruction of 18,000 villages, 1,500 towns and 2,000 castles. Under the terms of the treaty the religious freedom of the Protestant Northern Germany as well as Saxony and Bavaria. Both Sweden and France were granted land. The German states independence was guaranteed, thus weakening the power of the Holy Roman Empire.
The resultant shrinking of the Habsburg and Holy Roman Empire, controlled lands in Switzerland, Portugal and Northern Italy, and the Netherlands."

Almost after 400 years, we are trying to "understading" each other with the most civil way. Not a good score - if it was a case at CIV III, we would have lost already!

I have notice that many of us we have change flag icons!
Ecthelion, you achieved your aim!

[Roland]

And that establishes the nation state how ?

[MikeH]

Even if it's true, it's still only 400 years, blink of an eye.

[Paris]

Roland, Up to 1648 the knights fought each other and with this way were protecting their properties with occupations of castles and street fightings.
Afterwards 1648 it becomes obvious that needs something "bigger" for this, because any WAR for the sovereignty of grounds was (and IS remaining) A VERY EXPENSIVE sport... Under the umbrella of a Kingdom (nation-state) henceforth, adhered all the citizens. The King and Kingdom (not knights or sovereign anymore) they were building taxes systems for ALL citizens of their area: they could find money easier in order to do their expeditions.
That's why the Treaty of Westphalia is characterized as a landmark in the European history.

[Roland]

"Roland, Up to 1648 the knights fought each other"

For Germany you're at least 100 years of. The last Reichsritter feud was early 16th century.

"Afterwards 1648 it becomes obvious that needs something "bigger" for this"

Germany desintegrated into 300 sovereign entities.

"Under the umbrella of a Kingdom (nation-state)"

Kingdom does not equal nation state. The "german" kingdom can't even be qualified as a state. The Kingdom of Naples wasn't based on a nation. Etc etc etc.

"The King and Kingdom (not knights or sovereign anymore)"

"Knights" have only been "sovereign" in very few cases. The decline of the feudal system and the rise of the territorial state began in the 11th century with great advances in 13th century (I suggest studying the administrative structure of the French royal domaine at the time instead of quoting from some history book for children).

The nation state was based on the territorial state but those are two separate developments.

[Richard I]

I'd love to fly the EU flag, but im from Norway! Sadly, my ****ing countrymen don't like the EU. They think the other europeans will eat all our fish and drink all our oil if we join them... Perhaps they're right, but who cares???

Hey! How about flying both your national and the EU flag! Is that possible???

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Richard I
I'd love to fly the EU flag, but im from Norway! Sadly, my ****ing countrymen don't like the EU. They think the other europeans will eat all our fish and drink all our oil if we join them... Perhaps they're right, but who cares???

Thats the right spirit!

Hey! How about flying both your national and the EU flag! Is that possible???

Well, if you already use your nation´s flag as avatar, you can add the EU flag via the new flag feature...

[BeBMan]

Oh wait, you need a certain number of posts to have a custom avatar IIRC...sorry

[Richard I]

Isn't it possible to fix it??? Apolyton! You've got work to do!!!

[Ecthy]

I started a monster.

That's good.

[moomin]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
Harmonisation of economies and political policies leads to more stable and efficient environments.

8/10 for effort, 1/10 for content.

If the policies harmonized upon are lousy, they most certainly won't lead to more stable - or efficient - environments. Quite the contrary.

e.g Members of the euro zone have removed exchange rate variation and thus risk from European trading -

I think you'd do well not to assume your conclusion follows from your assertion.

they are more stable. More transparent pricing helps companies to find their goods at the best prices - i.e they are more efficient.

Unless, of course, the entire single-currency win by increased pricing transparency is lost by transnational EU-level regulations that increase the cost of production in all the union.

I'm afraid I don't really by this as "tangible benefits of Europe". Not that I don't belive that such benefits are possible, but I have yet to see them being realized. The very tangible costs of Europe, however, are all too real, here and now.

[Dauphin]

If the policies harmonized upon are lousy, they most certainly won't lead to more stable - or efficient - environments. Quite the contrary.

So ditch Europe because we might harmonise to the wrong level.

That is only likely if people don't get involved and just ***** about it. If you give proactive support rather than remain a naysayer you will get the type of European Union that you want/feel more comfortable with.

If you don't help design it, don't complain if it comes out differently to how you wanted it.

[Deathwalker]

EU

[Dauphin]

I think you'd do well not to assume your conclusion follows from your assertion.

If you don't have foreign exchange transactions you can not have foreign exchange losses and thus foreign exchange risk is removed.

I think the conclusion definitely follows from the assertion. How can it not?

[Ecthy]

maybe they don't do it that way in Sweden