Europeans to use EU flag as a flag icon...

[Provost Harrison]

Oh what is it with the obsession with nation states? Dammit, I think the EU seems a good idea, the unity of the people of Europe would create economies of scale in many sectors which the US currently benefits from.

And besides, come the revolution, it means a larger workers state to influence the rest of the world

[Ecthy]

Originally posted by paiktis22
Without the Axis of Berlin - Paris things would have moved very very slowly, if at all...

And I think that was high time after 500 years of constant state of war and 7 billions dead.

Wait, that was in Star Trek!

[Bereta_Eder]

PH, besides, nation states are a fairly recent fabrication.

[Ecthy]

Yep. Before that, we had mere influence spheres, with vassalizations and oppressive regime to any nationality.

Nation states are very "modern times". Heck, the whole Versailles treaty is based on the nation state idea.

[Provost Harrison]

Absolutely paiktis, it is amazing how people allude to their 'history' and 'culture' when it is all really a hotchpotch anyway. What is modern Britain? Invaded from everywhere, there were the original celts, the Saxons, Vikings, Normans...yet so many allude to this notion of 'nationality'. Lets face it, it is rubbish. If you've ever played civ3 you'll know you don't discover nationalism until the beginning of the industrial age

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by paiktis22
PH, besides, nation states are a fairly recent fabrication.

Define recent.

[Provost Harrison]

Within the past 200 years or so...that is recent...before then kingdoms used to change with marriage and other convenient political advantages; the people never had any notion of the nation-state.

[Bereta_Eder]

PH, so true and for every country.

Nationality is indeed rubbish but it also can become dangerous if it is "harvested" by some people for their own ends.

I mean, my own country would be people with whom I feel connected with and share similar ways of thinking.

Somehow I don't see "Greece" included necessairily anywhere in the previous sentence.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
Within the past 200 years or so...that is recent...

The nation-state is older than 200 years, PH.

[Ecthy]

Stop being such a smartarse, yankarse.

[Provost Harrison]

Not much older, hence the 200 years or so, implying it was an approximation. Pedant.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
Not much older, hence the 200 years or so,

I wasn't aware that the words or so were ever meant to cover such a large amount of time. Ignoramus.

[Spiffor]

Actaully, the nation-state was conceptualized by French philosophers during 18th century, and put into practical use during Napoleonic wars, when the French nation fought against foreign kingdoms. It triggered the construction of many national identities (most notably in Germany and central Europe). These national demands grew over time, with 1848 unrest, and came to an apex during WWI. Treaty of Versailles created many antion states from the ruins of Austria-Hungary, and Ottoman empire in a smaller scale.

Before this whole mess, the idea of antion never truly existed, because people didn't pledge loyalty to a nation, but to a sovereign. During 17th century European wars, cities changed hands without major civilian unrest.
You might say "look at the Dutch who became independent from Spain". True, there were some nationalistic beliefs before. But the idea that a nation (a culture group) must also be a state (an administration) is no more than 250 years old.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Spiffor
But the idea that a nation (a culture group) must also be a state (an administration) is no more than 250 years old.

354 years old to be exact. Look it up if you don't believe me.

[Roland]

"354 years old to be exact. Look it up if you don't believe me."

I don't believe you and I won't look it up. If anything 1648 marks the birth of the modern territorial state, but not of the nation state.