US planning to recruit one in 24 Americans as citizen spies

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Most of you don't remember the Cold War. This kind of mindless snooping and snitching is nothing new. It wasn't confined to the communist countries.

Ever heard of "reds under the beds"?

no...

what's that tapping devices?

[Victor Galis]

I don't think the government will recruit everyone that signs up for this program. I'm sure that they will carefully screen applicants to ensure that they can be trusted.

Yeah, CCTV cameras in public places don't violate the privacy of homes, and they deterr criminals by allowing law enforcement to catch them after the fact. This would try to catch people before they did anything!

[Roland]

"They were able to do this because ordinary Germans were more than willing to monitor and report ot the gestapo on their neighbours without being recruited for the purpose."

And apart from that, they had the Blockwart system in the party.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by Roland
"They were able to do this because ordinary Germans were more than willing to monitor and report ot the gestapo on their neighbours without being recruited for the purpose."

And apart from that, they had the Blockwart system in the party.

for uninitiated - what was "Blockwart"?

[Roland]

The smallest unit of the NSDAP, a block of flats or a small area. When the Nazis came to power those members took on a spy/informant/surveillance function.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by Roland
The smallest unit of the NSDAP, a block of flats or a small area. When the Nazis came to power those members took on a spy/informant/surveillance function.

sounds similar to the US model, but it is not just republicans that are recruited

[drake]

not to nitpick Drake, but so much has changed since 9/11 who can see 10 years down the line?

Take a snapshot of America 1 year pre-911 and 1 year post 911 and the pictures youll see will be nearly identical. No one will ever forget 911...but what really has changed? Where are the big differences that you imply? I haven't seen them. Have you?

Watch for suspicious activity: good
Report suspicious activity to authorities: good
Authorities make enquiries: good
Authorities come into your home without a warrant: bad
Authorities hide surveillance devices in your home without notifying you: bad. Under common law, citizens have the right to know when they are suspected of illegal activity. This would be a gross denial of common law.
Authorities make report on alleged suspect: What? No charges have been laid?! Doesn't a report constitute a presumption of fact? Isn't anyone who reads that report in years to come going to presume the suspect to be suspicious, irrespective of substantiation?

Where did I ever say anything about this? I agree with you on every count.

This plan we're discussing doesn't give any citizen off the street any such ability to enter someones home or plant surveillance devices. Nor does it give them right to arrest anyone un-lawfully.

You are jumping to conclusions. Just because some yahoo volunteer calls in a TIP doesnt mean the "suspicious person" is going to be violated in any of these ways. In all likelihood 99 out of 100 tips would probably be screened out. To think the government has the resources to follow up on every tip is silly.

[reds4ever]

Originally posted by drake


Take a snapshot of America 1 year pre-911 and 1 year post 911 and the pictures youll see will be nearly identical. No one will ever forget 911...but what really has changed? Where are the big differences that you imply? I haven't seen them. Have you?

the fact that these laws (and many other anti-terrorist measures that restrict civil liberties)are close to being passed in 'the land of the free' in proof enough, would they have got through 12 months ago?

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Roland
The smallest unit of the NSDAP, a block of flats or a small area. When the Nazis came to power those members took on a spy/informant/surveillance function.

Well they researched the archives recently and found people were just informing on others to be patriotic. They didn't even need an organised system like that.

Its not just Germans, say its patriotic and all sorts of ordinary people will turn into informers. C*nts.

[Victor Galis]

You are jumping to conclusions. Just because some yahoo volunteer calls in a TIP doesnt mean the "suspicious person" is going to be violated in any of these ways. In all likelihood 99 out of 100 tips would probably be screened out. To think the government has the resources to follow up on every tip is silly

-For now maybe, but if ever they started taking TIPS more seriously, and still didn't have the resources to investigate before seriously violating privacy rights...

[drake]

Scared people panic.

More level headed times are ahead.
I am confident of that. I don't subscribe to the "America is going to fall apart" ideas.

I only come to this programs defense because everyone is only seeing the potential negatives. I'd rather try and see the positives.

If everyone looked at the citizencorps site a little closer, they would see that theres much more to it than "spying on people". Theres programs that are being set up to help educate normal citizens as to what they should do in cases of emergencies, to help local authorities out and help provide assistance to people in medical need.

Those ideas must surely be idiocy as well since Bush supports them too.

[reds4ever]

Drake,

nice side-step! would any of these measures have got through 12 months ago??

to me the potential negatives far outweigh the potential benefits

[drake]

Would they have? No, probably not.

Though I fail to see how the average American will be affected by laws that target .000000000000001 percent of the population.

[DinoDoc]

Out of curiosity, are any of the Englishmen in this thread that are opposed to the Patriot act, etc. that have come out of the US Congress also opposed the the Prevention of Terrorism Act of 1974,1976 and other similar legislation that has come out of Parliament?

[reds4ever]

all i was say was that the USA has fundamentally changed as a result of 9/11, you denied it had. I think the fact that laws are being passed that affect it citizens that would have got passed previously is a good indication of that change.

BTW that percentage of the American population is 000000028 of a person, edit some noughts out;O)