Why you can't satisfy ANY demands by terrorists before ridding of every one of them

[CyberGnu]

Pretty conclusive when even a Israeli propaganda piece disagrees with you, isn't it?

I would still like those census figures. I know what they say, but I think it would be more convincing for you if you found just how few jews lived in palestine when the zionist movement started yourself.

And I am, of course, waiting for an apology.

[CyberGnu]

Chris, tell me, did you get some therapy after the 9/11 events? Maybe you always had a hard time telling political opposition from racism, maybe you are just influenced by pro-israeli hatemongers reflex anti-semite accusations, but maybe the events hurt you deeper than you are aware. If so, you can get help.

[Sirotnikov]

Ah , good old cyber.

Logic fails you so you start insulting other people to prove you are better.

It's alright. Size doesn't count you can relax

[/CyberGnu]

[Sirotnikov]

PS Cyber - about that Die Welt article that the JP "invented" - have you bothered actually mailing Die Welt and asking them whether it is an invention?

Or did you prefer to decide that if you couldn't find it in 5 mins, it doesn't exist?

[Sirotnikov]

Btw Cyber - you are glad to use the article's info about Arabs also being there in 1917.

But how about the rest of the article's points?

Do you only take what you see fit from every source?

[CyberGnu]

What insults? Are you referring to my question of whether Chris have gotten therapy? It is a sincere question. I remember Chris's posts from 9/11, he was in NYC when it happened, IIRC. I understand his anger at the time. Frustration over not being able to lash out at the people who were repsonsible transformed into hatred of all muslims.

But the anger has festered, and since it is irrational he can get help. He must understand his problem to combat it, however. Accusing me of being a racist is just one of the symptoms.


Regarding the alleged Die Welt story, I mailed the JP post twice. I didn't mail Die Welt. Feel free to do so


I don't really care much for Israeli propaganda pieces. CICSmaster posted it to show that he was wrong about the arab population. As I said in my reply to him, it is pretty conclusive when even an Israeli propaganda piece disagrees with a pro-Israeli point...

Note that I still asked for a reliable figure, however. Not least to point out the carefully ignored number in the posted article, i.e. the number of jews in palestine in, say, 1900.

[Sirotnikov]

Cyber - sure you aren't insulting. It's really fun to treat people as if you were a superior human.

What did JP answer?
And why didn't you mail Die Welt?
After all, if JP is lying then they won't have troubles to lie to you in a mail.
Die Welt is the only source which can say whether it ran the story or not.

I would mail them, but I don't recall what exactly were you talking about.


The number in 1900 was probably around 5-10%.
However you should view it by regions.

you'd see that they were often a majority in certain areas. Most notable are the settlements along the coast line, which were swampland at the time and are now farms.

[CyberGnu]

The JP never answered me (hence the second mail).

I don't really know why I didn't mail Die Welt. I guess I just didn't care that much.


Umm, I don't follow you... 5-10%?

[DaShi]

The most effective methods of getting someone out of your country are usually nonviolent protest and more so guerilla warfare.

Imagine how much more sympathy the palistinians would have gotten from the West if instead of blowing themselves up and killing several people, they set themselves on fire instead. All those hippie groups like Amnesty International are not going to look the other way. Even arranging sit ins or other means of nonviolent protest would be far more effective than suicide bombings. It would definitely demonstrate their feelings, and show the world that these are not just a bunch of crazy murderers who want to found a state called Murderopia.

Guerilla warfare is also quite effective though won't get you as much sympathy, but if you do it right it can. It has allowed small weaker powers to take on and boot out superpowers. The US did it to Great Britain, and Vietnam did it to the US. In neither case did they attack the home country of their enemy. That would be stupid. The whole point is to wear the superpower down until they have no further interest in your land. However, the minute you attack their homeland, they'll never let you go. Imagine if the Vietnamese someone managed to attack, invade, and burn LA. Do you think that the US would have left when it did? The Taliban was able to successfully hold back wave after wave of Soviet invaders. Yet, the minute they strike America they crumble before an enraged superpower.

Which leads us to a few possible conclusions:

1: If the Muslims (Bin Ladin and his sorts, and the Palistinians) stated goals are true, then it id quite possible that they are being ruled by suicidal idiots. Terrorism is a poor tactic in this case.

2: If they are not idiots, then their goals must be of a different nature than reclaiming holy land. A much more vicious and genocidal nature. If your plan is destroy an enemy, terrorism is a more effective tactic. However, a snake can not eat a dragon.

[blackice]

Too true dashi

[chequita guevara]

Dashi, we like to say that now, but the West pretty much ignore the Palestinians' plight for five decades. There were strikes and protests and all the non-violent stuff. No one cared, because all anyone could do was focus on the poor Jews and the evil Arabs. It wasn't until the first intifada that the world began to look at what Israel was doing to the occupied Palestinians.

We tend to view things ahistorically, without realizing there is a long history preceding the events we now have difficulty understanding.

The other thing you need to remember is that the Palestinian people believe, probably rightly, that Israel cannot be defeated militarily. They can't even hope to mount a successful guerilla war against Israel. Israel has won every war it has been in, and though Hezbolla did finally drive the Israelis out, Lebabnon was hardly as occupied or integrated as Palestine.

Not just frustration, but also the hopelessness of their cause drives them to make suicide attacks on civilians. It's the only way they can strike at their enemy.

Tactically, however, I can think of a much better way to use those suicide bombers. Instead of striking without warning. Once they have reached their target, they should anounce that they are a suicide bomb and let everyone escape. Then kill themselves. They acheive the same result of terror without the murder, and their willingness to sacrifice themselves makes them seem noble rather than cowardly.

[blackice]

I think you both agree somewhat the lines were blurred. Bottom line is you want simpathy do not kill innocent women and children kill yourself in a blaze of glory....Oh with the media called before hand.

Can you imagine the horror if one day they all took a street corner men, women and children and set fire to themselves and blamed Israelis oppression...

[DaShi]

Similar to setting themselves on fire to demonstrate their feelings of complete hopelessness. However, that would be more effective in making Israel look like the bad guys. Much for effective that going on a suicidal killing spree. They act more like disgruntled postal workers or the Columbine psychos. And those people don't get much sympathy.

Of course, the other solution is to try to work with what you've got. I don't know how oppressive Israeli rule is, but it is not like they can't build a decent civilization there.

[Zevico]

I don't really care much for Israeli propaganda pieces. CICSmaster posted it to show that he was wrong about the arab population. As I said in my reply to him, it is pretty conclusive when even an Israeli propaganda piece disagrees with a pro-Israeli point...

Cyber, you yourself just stated that Israeli 'Propoganda' tells the truth when it would be against their case to do so, and it helps the Palestinians as well. After which you call the Israeli media unreliable hate mongerers. Do you notice something wrong here?
Israeli newspapers are not filled with hate mongerers or whatever. Jerusalem Post may be quite right wing (I wouldn't go to the point of saying extreme), but no one there actually hates Palestinains or against them AFAIK, or at least the newspaper has never printed anything hateful.

Additionally, could you kindly find an article where the Jerusalem Post lies in some way, or even misuses the truth?

[Roland]

The JP is one of my fav jokes, sort of a toned-down jewish Stürmer. Outright lies are quite rare, they specialise in bias and halftruths. Their pet hate apart from arabs is the EU, but their attacks are so clumsy they're more amusing than annoying.

If I went through articles about europe I'm sure I could find a couple of outright lies.