Why you can't satisfy ANY demands by terrorists before ridding of every one of them

[CyberGnu]

There are innocents and responsible, Siro. I reject your distinction that someone who merely PAYS for aggression is innocent while the person carrying out the aggression is responsible.

The palestinians are innocent. They never asked you guys to come over and occupy their land. Get that through your fanatism, and you are more than 90% towards a solution.

Assuming you actually put peace over greed, of course.

[Guest]

The "Palestinians" may be innocent, but Israel NEVER occupied their lands as the "palestinians" never had any land. They are the result of illegal immigrations from Egypt, Syria and Jordan - as noted by the British and the Turks in their various censii.

[our_man]

I'd just thought I 'd set the record straight on the Irish War of Indepence being used as a terrorist analogy. There were some incidences of terror committed by Volunteer (later IRA) forces e.g. the burning of landlords homes, but these were greatly eclipsed by the atrocities the British carried out (The Burning of Cork, Bloody Sunday) during the war. The IRA targetted British forces and engaged in a campaign of geurilla warfare through the use of the "flying columns".

Some might debate as to whether the RIC was then a target, but the fact is that they were well armed and resembled more a paramilitary group than a police force. Collins was a military leader, not a terrorist - he did not fight cleanly preferring to ambush British troops(which is probably a good thing, since his forces were greatly outnumbered by British soldiers), but he did not conduct a campaign of terror as many seem to believe. Who was he trying to terrorize - the local population? Unlikely since Sinn Fein enjoyed 90% support at the time of the war.

Collins' goal was to make Ireland ungovernable for the British - by destroying the Crowns forces and it's institutions by replacing them with Irish ones e.g. the Dail courts set up during the war. This does not sound like the work of a terrorist.

With regard to the Free State offer, it might or might not have been neccesary for Collins' to wage war against the British to get it, I guess we'll never know. The reason why it degenerated into violence is that the British had previously reneged on their promise of Home Rule with the advent of WW1, and were only winning to grant it to Ireland during the war if conscription were allowed. The Irish people had good reason not to take their assurances at face value.

Another interesting fact is that the "Welsh Wizard", Lloyd George, bluffed Collins into accepting the Free State offer with the threat of a renewed war - in fact he knew that British public opinion would never tolerate it (after the Labour Delegation to Ireland of 1921 exposed the atrocities being committed by British forces). If Collins had called his bluff, Ireland could have had full independence.

[Chris 62]

Very interesting, Our.

It might be prudent to add that bombings often had prior warnings, and that most targets were either of a military of civil government nature, NOT random attacks in discos and Pizza parlors like our mid east friends favor.

[our_man]

Exactly Chris. If the Palestinians attacked military targets instead of civilians, I believe they would be much closer to acheiving an independent state. It would give them much more credibility internationally. It's not as if isn't within their logistical means - I remember they succeeded in destroying an Israeli tank a few months ago. International support for Israeli occupation would also decrease - it could hardly be justified given the fact that they would be the ones putting their soldiers in the firing line by being there in the first place.

[DinoDoc]

Our_man:

The IRA targeted British forces and engaged in a campaign of guerilla warfare through the use of the "flying columns".

I will stipulate that this was true at the beginning of his campaign. But Collins’s men soon began to cultivate the deaths of civilians- along with physical and psychological intimidation of noncombatants- as a way to spread fear and disorder. This would have the practical effect of disrupting the ability of the British to govern the area effectively.

The results of this were indeed tragic as you might imagine. Innocent people began to die at a rate that almost achieved a sick parity with that of British forces.

The guerilla tactics that they followed in the beginning were sound enough that the Sinn Fein and the IRA could realistically dream of profound change in only a matter of years. However the spread of terrorism led the British to suspend negotiations and sent in new occupational troops of a completely different and nastier breed than the regular soldiers. David Lloyd George unofficially said that he would not "shake hands with murder."

Collins' goal was to make Ireland ungovernable for the British - by destroying the Crowns forces and it's institutions by replacing them with Irish ones e.g. the Dail courts set up during the war. This does not sound like the work of a terrorist.

Collins is a man who has been intensely romanticized by novelists, Hollywood, and the public but who’s special gift in life seems to have been terrorism

[our_man]

I wouldn't neccesarily agree with your statement Dinodoc. As the war went on, terrorist acts did increase on both sides due to the intense hatred, but on the Irish side they remained minor incidents compared to their other military actions. In fact the Irish fighters began to resemble a more coherent force towards the end of the war, behaving more and more like an army.

This is in no way better illustrated than in the burning of the Customs House during the final days of the war. The Dail realized that these hit and run raids could not get sufficient international attention, and required a more head-on approach. I'm not too sure of the numbers involved in the actual battle, but at the end of the day over 100 IRA soldiers had been killed, captured or wounded. It was worth the cost however as the Customs House was one of the major symbols of British rule in Ireland, and soon afterwards (it might have been the next day) a cease-fire was declared.

Another indication of the IRA's discipline is that during the cease-fire, there were no acts committed (as far as I am aware) by them which could have led to it breaking down i.e. they halted all military activity. This does not sound like a group of terrorists but a disciplined group of soldiers, whose organization Collins played a major part in.

Another fact which I have never been able to understand about those who denounce Collins as a terrorist is that no-one wanted peace more than him. He knew the treaty wasn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination, yet he reffered to it as a "stepping-stone" through which they could acheive more freedom and accepted it in order to end the bloodshed. De Valera was the one who repudiated the treaty leading to the Civil War.

[Chris 62]

His fate was also sad, assinated by extremists, a sad irony.

Those who keep talking Irish "terror" should read a little about this man, and sinn fein in general, because they are completely wrong to compare it to Palestine.

http://michaelcollins.warnerbros.com/cmp/biography2.html

[CyberGnu]

CICS:

The "Palestinians" may be innocent, but Israel NEVER occupied their lands as the "palestinians" never had any land. They are the result of illegal immigrations from Egypt, Syria and Jordan - as noted by the British and the Turks in their various censii.

You must have a different history book than the rest of us. Is yours the one where the romans closed the gate behind the departing jews and palestine was completely deserted until 1900, when jews and beduoins dressed up as palesinians started filling it up again?

Oh, and the people who supposedly lived there during the crusades were all spanish extras, brought in by the pope to give a good show. Saladin was played by an early ancestor of Antonio Banderas.


If you wish to add something constructuve to the debate, you might want to consult a non-jewish textbook, however...

[Lung]

Rather than read this whole thread, i'll just make it simple -

Deliberately killing innocent civilians is unacceptable - period. Doing so is called terrorism, therefore terrorism is unacceptable.

Agreed?

[faded glory]

Oh lets pull out of Saudi Arabia and give in too the terrorists......


Somewhere in OBL's Lair.....

"Brother, we have defeated the evil pigs They are leaving the holy land, should we stop attacking them?"
"Naaa, see if we cant get them to do a couple of other things first. Hell, if they gave in this time, they'll fold the next time even quicker. "

[Guest]

How whood!

Originally posted by CyberGnu
CICS:

If you wish to add something constructuve to the debate, you might want to consult a non-jewish textbook, however...

Gnu:

You must have a different history book than the rest of us. Is yours the one written by Yasser. You know, the one where the Jews were actually all killed by Hitler, and the people in Israel now are Americans who wish to deprive the Pals of their land.

If you want to add something interesting to the debate, perhaps you should looks at the census figures from the Brits and the Turqs of the area that is NOW Israel. Not the area of the whole middle east.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by faded glory
Oh lets pull out of Saudi Arabia and give in too the terrorists......


Somewhere in OBL's Lair.....

"Brother, we have defeated the evil pigs They are leaving the holy land, should we stop attacking them?"
"Naaa, see if we cant get them to do a couple of other things first. Hell, if they gave in this time, they'll fold the next time even quicker. "

That's the kind of thinking that got the French annihilated in Vietnam, and kept the US in Vietnam five years after it realized it could not win. But reason doesn't work on fanataics, so why do I bother to argue?

[Chris 62]

CICSMaster,

Word of warning:

No matter what you say, that fellow will not agree.

[CyberGnu]

CICSmaster, post a link to those census figures then.

The coastal plains of Palestine has been one of the most heavily populated areas of the ME for thousands of years. Neither your fanciful claims nor your pathetic attempts of sarcasm changes that.