Myths of US Foreign Policy

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Roland
Btw, what's this american obsession with dissing europe ? If The US were only half as great as Safire claims, why bother about what we say or think?

This "American obsession" which I sometimes also find annoying is born of several things (in no particular order):

1) seemingly near-constant criticism of US policy from Europe
2) the arrogance of power
3) a strange desire to be liked by the rest of the world
4) the belief that we're right and European critics are wrong
5) a belief that Europe should be just a little bit grateful for US action in WWII and the Cold War.
6) Americans tend to have more pride in their country than Europeans. The Brits, in particular, seem to take twisted pleasure in belittling their country. Americans tend to love their country, even if they hate what the government is doing and rail against it daily. Hence the often prickly response to outside criticism.

2 and 3 together sure make for a strange mix.

6 is kinda where I'm coming from.

-Arrian

[Saint Marcus]

that's what I found too when dealing with Americans.

[JohnIII]

Originally posted by Arrian
The Brits, in particular, seem to take twisted pleasure in belittling their country.

I can assure you there is nothing twisted about good, healthy, self-loathing.

[Arrian]

Self-criticism, yes. Self-loathing... not so sure. You guys take it to a whole new level. It can be funny, though.

We're too "young" of a country to really rip our past mistakes apart in a properly amusing fashion (see the thread about Eddie Izzard in this very forum. Specifically, the bits about the beginning and end of the British Empire).

Marcus,

I'm disturbed that you agreed with me. About anything.

-Arrian

[Saint Marcus]

why?

I'm more than just an ignorant annoying and stupid bigot.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus
I'm more than just an ignorant annoying and stupid bigot.

I never considered you to be ignorant.

[Saint Marcus]

well, that's something at least

[MarkG]

Dino, where is the contradiction?

since you refuse to start a new thread:
you said

was the Spartans, not the Macedonians

the above contains two arguments(as i see it, correct if i'm wrong):
1) the separation of macedonians from greeks, something that is answered in the link that i provided above as well as this one http://history.macedonia.gr/faq.htm
2) that the key role(off all Greeks) in the Persians wars was that of the Spartans. yet, the very page that YOU link to says

the Athenian fleet was probably the most important component of that victory

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by MarkG
since you refuse to start a new thread:

Why should I start another thread?

you said

was the Spartans, not the Macedonians

the above contains two arguments(as i see it, correct if i'm wrong):
1) the separation of macedonians from greeks,

Given the time period, I think that it is a valid seperation to make given the fact that a unified Greek State wasn't in existance at the time.

2) that the key role(off all Greeks) in the Persians wars was that of the Spartans.

Actually in one of my next posts after the one you quote, I give proper credit to Athens as well.

[MarkG]

a unified Greek State wasn't in existance at the time

what does nations have to do with states? are going to tell me that israelis suddenly appeared as a nation 50 years ago?

I give proper credit to Athens as well

so you refuted yourself. ok

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by MarkG

a unified Greek State wasn't in existance at the time

what does nations have to do with states?

Nations don't have to be States and States don't have to be nations.

I give proper credit to Athens as well

so you refuted yourself. ok

Macedonia still played no part in the Persian War. So the point still stands.

[MarkG]

Nations don't have to be States and States don't have to be nations.

that's what i said too. Macedonians were Greeks regardless of the existance of a unified Greek state

Macedonia still played no part in the Persian War. So the point still stands.

so what? It was Greeks as a nation that won the Persian war

and btw. I'm a Greek. my ancestors were the ancient Greeks. unfortunately i cant trace my genealogy tree 2000 years back to see if my ancestors lived in Macedonia

[Roland]

I have traced my ancestors back 2000 years. I'm mostly Italo-Illyro-Germano-Slavic-Bohemian.

Arrian:

Good points, but I still wonder.....

"1) seemingly near-constant criticism of US policy from Europe"
"4) the belief that we're right and European critics are wrong"

We love to criticise. But on this side there are also pretty loud voices supporting the US position. Even Bush. I barely hear anything supporting our majority view from your side though...

"2) the arrogance of power"

Which is funny, because that power is quite limited. Only your rightwing and our leftwing nuts seem to believe it is overwhelming.

"3) a strange desire to be liked by the rest of the world"

Never undertood that one. But why then do virtually all americans piss off everyone else by constantly (rightfully or wrongly) telling them how much they suck compared to the US ?

"5) a belief that Europe should be just a little bit grateful for US action in WWII and the Cold War."

That's also a funny one, because on the other hand, we always hear from Americans that we are too tied into our history.

"6) Americans tend to have more pride in their country than Europeans...."

I wouldn't be so sure about that. But you definately make a lot more noise about it.

[Ecthy]

I think the ancestors of the modern Greeks are merely Slavs, not ancient Greeks. Just like the ancestors of the modern Egyptians are merely Arabs, not ancient Egyptians.

My ancestors would be any European peoples mixed, no chance anyone could be 100% teutonic/germanic, unless on the villages where your mother and you sister is the same thing though.

[MarkG]

i dont know much about the actual connection of modern egyptians with ancient egyptians, but my people have been continuously speaking the same language(with some changes of course) the last 3000 years. and that's only an example of the connections between ancient greeks and modern greeks. the facts that slavs populated the balkans doesnt magically make the nations previously living in the area dissappear nor does mean that populations mixed. if you have something more than a generalization of what you assume about the egyptians let me know...