Declaration of Independence unconstitutional

[Deathwalker]

Only in America can you find a court thats states that the Declaration of Independence is unconstitutional

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Deathwalker
Only in America can you find a court thats states that the Declaration of Independence is unconstitutional

Well we haven't found one yet. I imagine the consensus is that the declaration is pre-constitutional.

[KrazyHorse]

Whereas Lincoln (usually so straightforward and unassuming) is merely pre-menstrual.

[Lincoln]

Originally posted by Sikander


Any appeal to "original intent" has to be to the original intent of the signators of the constitution, not John Locke, however influential he might have been.

Well the point is that you have to study the founders to determine what influenced them. John Locke did have a profound influence on many of them. Nevertheless their own writings and deliberations prior and during the constitutional convention confirm that they were in agreement with the views of John Locke. Roger Williams also influenced them. If you read the "Bloody tenants of persecution" by Williams you will begin to see a pattern that is repeated and finally incorporated into the constitution. No where are the principles of the Declaration refuted in the constitution, unless one ignores the intent of the founders.

The "establishment" clause of the Bill of Rights that was later added was meant to ensure that the new state would not interfere with religious liberty as it stood then and would not compell the people to support or join a particular SECT of Christianity. The Church Of England and its mixture with the state was what was feared (or similar doctrines enforced by the state.)

People often fled to America to escape persecution and they became quite independant and diverse in their religious practices. The first couple of hundred years showed the futility in trying to have one common set of doctrines for the entire country. As an example Boston hated the Quakers (and just about anyone else that didn't conform to their religious views) so many fled to Pensalvania. Roger Williams was also kicked out and he founded the state of Rhode Island. It was his writings and the result of his persecution that had a great deal of influence on the founders.

Interestingly, Roger Williams himself provided for general principles of Christianity in the civil affairs of the state of Rhode Island. The difference was that no particular SECT of Christianity was mandated by the state. That is exactly what the Constitution of the United States allows for now. The general and generic customs of Christianity are a part of the civil government. A simple tour of Washington DC will confirm that as will a cursory examination of history.

[Jack the Bodiless]

Well the point is that you have to study the founders to determine what influenced them. John Locke did have a profound influence on many of them.

As did Thomas Paine.

Nevertheless their own writings and deliberations prior and during the constitutional convention confirm that they were in agreement with the views of John Locke.

Is "prior and during the constitutional convention" a deliberate attempt to exclude the Treaty of Tripoli, in which it is plainly and unambiguously stated that the US government is in no sense based on the Christian religion?

[Lincoln]

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless


The effect of a government not tolerating atheists is to force religion on people.

What were the religious beliefs of those directly responsible for the words of the Declaration of Independence?

Because, regardless of whether it is "constitutional" or not, it is un-Christian!

Nope, not according to Christianity. Christian theology teaches that we are all sinners deserving of death. We have no "rights". That is the justification for Biblical atrocities: God, or those acting with God's authorization, can do anything to us, for any reason or no reason. We have no right to expect anything better. We have no right to salvation either, no matter how good or pious we have been.

The closest Christianity gets to the concept of a "right to life" is the commandment "Thou Shalt Not Kill", more properly translated as "Thou Shalt Not Murder" (i.e. no killing without authorization: there is a lot of authorized killing in the Bible). Again, this represents a lack of rights: only God and his approved agents have the right to kill.

Christianity teaches that everything we commonly think of as a "right" is an undeserved gift for which we should be grateful. This is diametrically opposed to the notion of inalienable "human rights".

Maybe this is why Thomas Paine, who wrote "The Rights Of Man", was definitely not a Christian!

First of all, I have written an entire book exposing the hypocrisy of much of so called Christian America including the founding and the Declaration of Independance. The treatment of the Indians is one example that immediately comes to mind.

The equality clause comes form Acts and elswhere, e.g.,
Acts:17:26: "And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation". It also comes from numerous references about God being "no respector of persons" but he judges kings as he does servants. The term "equal" means that no one's wealth or status influences his standing before God. The United States extended that view of equality based upon humanity and not on a noble blood line.

Thomas Jefferson did not believe all of the Bible but he did believe in the parts he called "diamonds in the midst of a dunghill". Those "diamonds" were the basis for his views on religion, so that is one reason why there is no reference to other Christian doctrines.

[Sava]

[Pythagoras]

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless


The effect of a government not tolerating atheists is to force religion on people.

What were the religious beliefs of those directly responsible for the words of the Declaration of Independence?

Because, regardless of whether it is "constitutional" or not, it is un-Christian!

Nope, not according to Christianity. Christian theology teaches that we are all sinners deserving of death. We have no "rights". That is the justification for Biblical atrocities: God, or those acting with God's authorization, can do anything to us, for any reason or no reason. We have no right to expect anything better. We have no right to salvation either, no matter how good or pious we have been.

The closest Christianity gets to the concept of a "right to life" is the commandment "Thou Shalt Not Kill", more properly translated as "Thou Shalt Not Murder" (i.e. no killing without authorization: there is a lot of authorized killing in the Bible). Again, this represents a lack of rights: only God and his approved agents have the right to kill.

Christianity teaches that everything we commonly think of as a "right" is an undeserved gift for which we should be grateful. This is diametrically opposed to the notion of inalienable "human rights".

Maybe this is why Thomas Paine, who wrote "The Rights Of Man", was definitely not a Christian!

Christianity has a strong foundation in free will, it just so happens that the mark of a good christian is to let God's will overcome that free will by choice. A good christian should be an example for the rest of the community but should never force his beliefs on anyone, since beliefs not founded out of choice are worthless. Perhaps that is the source of religous based freedoms.

[Sava]

Hey Pythagoras, is that why Christianity has missionaries trying to convert people across the world? Is that why I have people knocking at my door soliciting their religion? Is that why the mob ruled majority of my country is too selfish to get God out of government?

[Felch]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove

Herer in Lynchburg Jerry Falwell's Liberty U is celebrating the 4th of July with a historic re-enactment - of a Civil War battle - which the Confederacy won. Is that patriotic gratitude or what?

I here the name Lynchburg every once in a while, being just north of you in MD and all, and it always strikes me as odd. What little redneck scum would name their town that?

[Sava]

The kind of redneck scum that want to keep "under god" in the pledge. The kind of redneck scum that want to make abortion illegal. The kind of redneck scum that want prayer in schools.... man I could go on all day.

[Boris Godunov]

Um, Lynchburg is named for a person with the last name Lynch, not the act.

[Sava]

well they still suck...

[Urban Ranger]

The point is the US Declaration of Indepedence is not the US Constitution. No matter how hard you try, Lincoln, it never was and never will be.

[Boris Godunov]

A Deist is a theist.

EDIT: No fair changing your post, UR!!!