Declaration of Independence unconstitutional

[DinoDoc]

Removed.

[Lincoln]

The Declaration is the foundation upon which this nation stands. That is why today is a national holiday. The fact is the great majority of the founders were theists and they formed the laws from that basis. In order to change the foundation it is necessary to have a revolution. It does little good to ignore history.

This thread is not about the pledge, by the way.

[DinoDoc]

Sorry. I got that impression from the mention of the 9th Circuit ruling. If you want, I'll edit out the article.

[Lincoln]

I was talking to Sava. He wanted to argue over the wording in the pledge. I think we did that before...

There is a relevance though, but I would like to discuss the Declaration and if it is in fact unconstitutional to have it read in school when the poor atheist kids might have to hear the dreaded 'G' word.

[Ramo]

The Declaration is the foundation upon which this nation stands.

The Declaration is a list of grievances Americans had against England. The Constitution is the foundation upon which this nation stands - if one could say such a foundation exists.

[Lincoln]

The foundation was laid long before the constitution was written. It is based upon the reasoning of men such as John Locke.

[Ramo]

Locke et al. may have been the philosophical foundation, but it was not the legal foundation.

Besides, then the foundation is not the Declaration.

[Darkworld Ark]

I wouldn't be amazed if the 9th Circuit did declare the Decloration unconstitutional, they'll declare anythiong unconstitutional, in fact, just last week they found my foot unconstitutional, now I've got this pirate peg-leg.

[Lincoln]

Excerpt from John Locke:

Lastly, those are not at all to be tolerated who deny the being of a God. Promises, covenants, and oaths, which are the bonds of human society, can have no hold upon an atheist. The taking away of God, though but even in thought, dissolves all; besides also, those that by their atheism undermine and destroy all religion, can have no pretence of religion whereupon to challenge the privilege of a toleration.

As for other practical opinions, though not absolutely free from all error, if they do not tend to establish domination over others, or civil impunity to the Church in which they are taught, there can be no reason why they should not be tolerated.



Letter Concerning Toleration, 1689

[Dis]

I think the 9th circuit of appeals is unconstitutional

[Pythagoras]

Originally posted by Lincoln
The Declaration is the foundation upon which this nation stands. That is why today is a national holiday. The fact is the great majority of the founders were theists and they formed the laws from that basis. In order to change the foundation it is necessary to have a revolution. It does little good to ignore history.

This thread is not about the pledge, by the way.

I dont care if 30% of them were islamic or if they were all atheists, or if they followed Belzor the Pizza God. The point is that little kids should not BE FORCED in a school that THE GOV'T REQUIRES THEM TO ATTEND to state a belief that the nation is founded under God, Ala, under a Godless Sky, Vishu, Barfo the Hamburger God, Ronald Macndonald the Hamburger Antichrist, Isus, that cow thing in "Ten Commandments", or anyone. The 1st ammendment exists solely independent of the popular religion of America. (or so I thought before that sellout in cali. gave into public pressure)

[Pythagoras]

It should also be said that there is a difference between teaching about a religion and the beliefs of historical individuals (as expressed in the declaration) and the purposeful endorsement of a religion or belief. So showing someone the declaration andsaying "The founders believed in god" is different from making someone come to a school every day to salute the flag in a fashion that implies belief in God.

BTW Thomas Jefferson on Crossfire tonight CNN@7pm

[Lincoln]

No one is forced to believe in God, nor are they forced to imply that they believe in God. In fact, they are not forced to even say the pledge. In fact they are not even forced to say the words "under God" even if they do decide to say the pledge.

The pledge itself, as it is written, does however tell the truth that the nation is in fact "under God" as the writings and the laws of the founders prove both before and after the constitution. Theism was a part of the foundation of the republic. Why would you want the kids to pretend that it wasn't? Are you afraid that the mere mention of the word 'God' would force a conversion?

[Jaakko]

Why do you want a Christian state so much Lincoln? It's not like a state mandate makes a religion better, in fact I'd argue it makes for lousy religion, at least as far as Christianity is concerned. You know, that bit in the Bible about public vs. private show of faith and all.
Is it really very Christian to do all that, and then rub it in the non-believers' face because they're not the majority?

[Lincoln]

I am just trying to prevent people from ignoring the foundation of this republic by pretending that the word "God" is unconstitutional. I lived in Thailand for 5 months and I did not feel forced to accept Budahism. It is a fact however that Thailand is a Budahist nation. It is also a fact that the United States was founded on the precepts of the Christian religion with the guarantee of freedom of worship for all. That just happens to be a fact. If you read the article from John Locke that I referrenced you will see that he agrees that religion should not be forced on anyone, but theism forms the basis of our laws.