Communists. Enlighten me.

[Strates]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Organization work costs money. Papers need to be printed, organizers sent on trips, convetions set up. Everything takes money, I was just broke for a very long time.

But that was just an excuse. They really wanted me out for political reasons. I was part of a faction fight that was brewing to get Solidarity to be more active and have a public face. I was also going to attack the leadership for their reactionary stance during the Carey-Teamster debacle. Socialists supporting the government indeed!

So you were kicked out too... welcome to the club. I was a member of the oakland branch.

[Sprayber]

I'lll ask the question that I've asked many times before. Given the track record of communism and the seemly lack of concern that it's past representatives have demonostrated for the real welfare of the people, why should we give them any serious thought as an alternative to the system that we already have. I have no illusions that our current system is perfect. It is far from it. But why should we trade it in for s system that has time and time again failed to live up to it's goal. Or does the claim of equality simply mean equal misery for all.


I don't doubt that many of the rank and file members have a real desire to uplift humanity. But they allow their leadership to use the same line about people not really knowing what is good for them to justify gross brutality.

A question I would really like to ask the communists supporters is what is your opinion of the US constitution? Would you change it out of hand, pick what you like and throw out the rest, or keep it? It isn't a perfect document(it wasn't meant to be) but it's a damn far sight better then some vague promises someone makes while talking about the people. In my opinion, most communists are no better then the capitalist politicians that they claim to oppose. Lots of promises with few real ideas about how to achieve them.

[Jon Miller]

capitalism and democracy have messed up to

the US was just lucky with it's early leaders

if communism was as lucky it would be as successful as the SU is today

Jon Miller

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
capitalism and democracy have messed up to

the US was just lucky with it's early leaders

if communism was as lucky it would be as successful as the SU is today

Jon Miller

Show me where I said that they hadn't. The question remains the same.

[Jon Miller]

because it makes sense logically

and is more right and better for the people

we are headed in that direction anyway, it is just how long we take to get there and how much suffering occurs along the way

Jon Miller

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
because it makes sense logically

and is more right and better for the people

we are headed in that direction anyway, it is just how long we take to get there and how much suffering occurs along the way

Jon Miller

The idea sounds good. But so far it hasn't been shown to work in practice on a large scale. Sure we have elements of it, but that is because practical people tweaked what we had already to include certain aspects to better care for the people. That's the whole point of compromise. That's why the system that we have is so much better. Your system only works if the people in charge are benign and very humble in their ambitions. What communist leaders have fit that description(and lived long enough to make a difference)? You want it all right now. And that is why communism fails. It does serve one purpose in that it keeps the current system on it's toes and more willing to be open to ideas.

Communism is most useful as a minority party that challenges the status quo. But if it ever takes power, it only brings misery.

[Ned]

Sprayber, I think it speaks volumes that not one single communist endorsed the bill of rights. They may claim to be in favor of the common man, but would strip him of every liberty and human right.

[Az]

yes, ned, of course. yawn.

[Saras]

Originally posted by Sixchan
If I had to pick, I'd rather have:

STALINISM

Which is a far cry from the Idealistic Communist I once was.

You hsould have your head examined.

[Frankychan]

Originally posted by Dalgetti
as I've already said it to Sixchan, as long as one's being 'utilitarian' about the way for perfect society , I have no problem with it . However ,if he's getting any power , I'll be the guy with the sniper rifle, assassinating you, Sixchan .

I can see how you see communism as a variant of utilitarianism. Jeremy Bentham created utilitarianism as and idea for "the greatest good for the greatest number" and that sort of thing. Since the majority of people belong in the "working class", Communism seems like the perfect ideology. Unfortunately, when put into practice, Utilitarianism was extremely barbaric (i.e. the Panopticon Prison).

Communism is (IMHO) the best ideology out there...better than most other ideologies out there. Unfortunately, the application of it in real life has not met with much success due to "party leaders" not having altruistic motives behind their actions. Most seem to use communism as a crutch to catapult themselves into power, then turn the government into a tool to support their own greed.

.....But needless to say, I am still a devout believer in communism (even if I tend to lean toward the left) and hope one day we can all shed the wool from our eyes and eventually overcome the hardships put in place by the "ruling elite".

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by frankychan
Communism is (IMHO) the best ideology out there...better than most other ideologies out there. Unfortunately, the application of it in real life has not met with much success due to "party leaders" not having altruistic motives behind their actions. Most seem to use communism as a crutch to catapult themselves into power, then turn the government into a tool to support their own greed.

That's the whole problem Franky. What good is a system that is a good theory but doesn't work in the real world? Communism can only work in a world where people are perfect and not interested in personal power. It's not that all communists are evil. It's that they are so naive as to allow powerful charismatic people to use them to create power for themselves. Yeah the current system is not perfect and people are often hurt by it. But nothing that anyone here has said tells me that communism would be any better.


The constant insistence that communists only care about the people do not impress me in the least. Communism is much more like a religion then many of you would like to admit. It takes a tremoundous amout of faith to believe that your system is any better when real world example prove otherwise. Hell, you guys even have fights over dogma.

.....But needless to say, I am still a devout believer in communism (even if I tend to lean toward the left) and hope one day we can all shed the wool from our eyes and eventually overcome the hardships put in place by the "ruling elite".

How about the rulling elite that comes from the communist party. You guys always say that it's only temporary. But there is always a reason to keep it around another generation. How many generations do you think it will take to erase the evil capitalist urges from the US? How many people are a threat to the paradise that you promise us? And what do you do with those threats? I think those are some questions you need to ask yourself before you go and support them.

[Mr. President]

Communism would work in a world where it was the only economic ideology. When forced to compete against capitalism, it fails quite convincingly.

[Sixchan]

Very true. For communism to serve everyone and make them happy, all the participants must be communists. Any capitalist, monarchist, republican or fascist can never be happy under a true communist government. If everyone learns from a giant war or something, ala WWIII in Star Trek (which results in everyone being communist), then sure, communism will work. Otherwise, something else needs to be tried. One thing that works in this situation is brainwashing, or as the communists put it, 're-education'. Something along the lines of 'The Republic', or 'Brave New World', would be in order, though that would more serve my goals rather than the goals of the Democoms.

[Az]

education is essential, and as the soviet union proved by the way, it can be easily achieved. after the war ended , a generation of young people that survived the war ,and lived in the soviet union for their entire lives , were ready to build and to create. However , this was met by an uncaring government that was cold to their feelings, and was immersed in itself.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I couldn't have said it better. Welcome Comrade Strates!

Except wrt to Chinese history