Corrupt America

[Asher]

No, but then again many people have committed murders, should I force you to earn my trust back?

Give me a break.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Oh I see, and letting the companies do whatever they want has workled so wonderfully well.

Actually it has. Evidence: Chile.

It has worked very well in the US... wealth has been generated.

[Asher]

Reminds me of when the SEC ordered an audit of Nvidia to check on their bookkeeping. Stupid left-wing pressure and all. After the audit was complete, it turned out Nvidia did slightly misrepresent profits -- it UNDERSTATED them by a few million over the last 3 years due to clerical errors by double-booking some expenses.

[Asher]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Your loss. Ignore him at your peril. Even the right in the US doesn't do that.

The man's a fool and blatantly biased, why you'd think I'd waste my time reading his drivel is like me pointing you to an article by Ross Perot. If you actually would read that, I feel sorry for you.

A few bad apples and the left acts like the world is crumbling down. Get over yourselves.

Some people are bad, they commit crimes, NOT ALL PEOPLE ARE BAD, and not all people should be punished. Stop setting double standards because you don't like corporations.

[Giancarlo]

Yet, Che wants to punish the companies... I am sorry, Che, but that kind of philosophy should send the world back to the stone age.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Fez
Actually it has. Evidence: Chile.

Chile, you mean the country that Friedman's Chicago boys so badly screwed up in the late '70s that Pinochet was force to nationalize more of the economy than Allende did? The success of monetarism in Chile is one of the Big Lies of deregulation.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Asher
Reminds me of when the SEC ordered an audit of Nvidia to check on their bookkeeping. . . . After the audit was complete, it turned out Nvidia did slightly misrepresent profits -- it UNDERSTATED them by a few million over the last 3 years due to clerical errors by double-booking some expenses.

Gosh, understating profits, can't imagine why anyone would be upset about that *cough* *cough* taxes *cough* *cough* stock dividends *cough* *cough* pay raises.

[Asher]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Gosh, understating profits, can't imagine why anyone would be upset about that *cough* *cough* taxes *cough* *cough* stock dividends *cough* *cough* pay raises.

Che, $3M is nothing when you're dealing with billions of dollars.

They were simple clerical errors, which is what the SEC ruled.

You also forget less profit reported is bad for the company: Their stock/reputation take a beating if they report less profit.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Chile, you mean the country that Freedman's Chicago boys so badly screwed up in the late '70s that Pinochet was force to nationalize more of the economy than Allende did? The success of monetarism in Chile is one of the Big Lies of deregulation.

Uhoh... here we go again... big bag of hot air... now who was the one that ended up with 300 bullets in their body in 1973 was it? Was Chile the one that ended up with a very large middle class?

Oh the companies abused us... HAHAHAHA.. this is pathetic.

It is a fact that Chile is:

World's largest copper producer. Fresh fruit exports. Strong investment inflows have kept the economy growing at 7% to 8% over the last decade. Highest credit rating due to fiscal and monetary stability and highly liquid financial system. Development of non-traditional industries such as fresh and prepared fish and wine.

More....

Under Allende, socialist policies brought huge corporations into the state sector. The Pinochet dictatorship which overthrew him introduced radical monetarist policies. Drastic cutting of the state sector and the selling-off of state enterprises at below market value led to large profits for investors and speculators. Tough economic measures, irrespective of the social consequences, reduced Chile's inflation rate from 400% to 15%.

http://travel.dk.com/wdr/CL/mCL_Econ.htm

I remain unconvinced by your stone age era antics.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Asher
The man's a fool and blatantly biased, why you'd think I'd waste my time reading his drivel . . .

The truth is biased. Reality is biased. It's just biased against you. I remember what it was like to be a teenager and know everything. What an ass I was. Nader is only considered a fool by real fools. The right in the US knows that he's damned smart, organized, and has his info straight. They hate and fear him, less now that he's burned the Democratic Party (but it needed burning).

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Fez
It is a fact that Chile is:

World's largest . . . [blah blah blah]

More....

Which says nothing about the policies that got the country to where it is today. The reason it pulled out of its late '70s early '80s collapse was because Pinochet eventually went against the advice of people like Milton Friedman and got the state very active in the economy.

And what does the murder of Allende have to do with anything? I was noting the irony of the General enacting greater nationalization policeis that the man he replaced. The nationalization of American industries (Kennicot and Anaconda Copper, Pepsi, etc) was why Allende was overthrown in the first place.

[chequita guevara]

Miracle cure, but the medicine was bright red
Observer, London
Sunday, November 22, 1998
Greg Palast

Cinderella's Fairy Godmother and Augusto Pinochet have much in common. Both have magic powers. Pinochet is credited with the Miracle of Chile, the successful experiment in free markets, privatisation, deregulation and union-free economic expansion whose laissez-faire seeds spread from Santiago to Surrey, from Valparaiso to Virginia.

But Cinderella's pumpkin did not really turn into a coach. And the Miracle of Chile is another fairy-tale. The claim that Pinochet begat an economic powerhouse is one of those utterances whose truth rests on its repetition.

Chile can claim economic success. But that is entirely the work of Marxist leader Salvador Allende, who saved his nation, miraculously, a decade after his death.

In 1973, the year the general seized power, Chile's unemployment rate was cut by 4.3 per cent. In 1983, after 10 years of free-market modernisation, unemployment reached 22 per cent. Real wages declined by 40 per cent under military rule. In 1970, 20 per cent of Chile's population lived in poverty.

By 1990, the year 'President' Pinochet left office, the number of destitute people had doubled to 40 per cent. Quite a miracle.

Pinochet did not destroy Chile's economy all by himself. He had the help of academia's most brilliant minds: a gaggle of Milton Friedman's trainees, the Chicago Boys. Under their spell, the General abolished the minimum wage, outlawed union bargaining, privatised the pension system, abolished all taxes on wealth and business profits, slashed public employment, privatised 212 industries and 66 banks and ran a fiscal surplus.

Free of the dead hand of bureaucracy, taxes and unions, the country took a giant leap... into bankruptcy and depression. After nine years of Chicago-style economics, Chile's industry keeled over and died.

In 1982 and 1983, GDP dropped by 19 per cent. Blood and glass littered the laboratory floor, yet the mad scientists of Chicago declared a success. The US State Department concluded: 'Chile is a casebook study in sound economic management.' It was Friedman who himself coined the phrase 'Miracle of Chile'. Friedman's sidekick, economist Art Laffer, preened that Pinochet's Chile was, 'a showcase of what supply-side economics can do'.

It certainly was. More exactly, Chile was a showcase of deregulation gone beserk. The Chicago Boys persuaded the junta that removing restrictions on the nation's banks would free them to attract foreign capital to fund industrial expansion. Pinochet sold off the state banks - at a 40 per cent discount against book value.

They fell into the hands of two conglomerate empires, controlled by speculators Javier Vial and Manuel Cruzsat. Using these banks, Vial and Cruzat bought up manufacturers, then leveraged these assets with loans from foreign investors panting for their piece of the state giveaway.

By 1982, the pyramid finance game was up. The Vial and Cruzat 'Grupos' defaulted. Industry shut down, private pensions became worthless, and the currency swooned. Riots and strikes by a population too desperate to fear bullets forced Pinochet to boot out his beloved Chicago experimentalists.

Reluctantly, the General restored the minimum wage and collective bargaining. Having previously decimated the ranks of state employees, he authorised a programme to create 500,000 jobs.

Chile was pulled from depression by dull old Keynesian remedies, all Franklin Roosevelt, zero Margaret Thatcher. (The junta even instituted what is today South America's only law restricting the flow of foreign capital.)

New Deal tactics rescued Chile from the panic of 1983, but the nation's long-term recovery and growth is the result of (cover the children's ears) a large dose of socialism.

To save the nation's pension system, Pinochet nationalised banks and industry on a scale unimagined by Salvador Allende. The General expropriated at will, offering little or no compensation. While most were eventually reprivatised, the state retained ownership of one industry: copper.

For nearly a century, copper has meant Chile and Chile has meant copper. Dr Janet Finn, metals expert at the University of Montana, remarks: 'It's absurd to describe a nation as a miracle of free enterprise when the engine of the economy remains in government hands.' (And not just any government: a Pinochet law, still in force, gives the military 10 per cent of state copper revenues.)

Copper has provided between 30 and 70 per cent of the nation's export earnings. This is the hard currency that has built today's Chile. The proceeds from the mines seized from Anaconda and Kennecott in 1973 was Allende's posthumous gift to his nation.

Agribusiness was the second locomotive of the Allende years. According to Professor Arturo Vasquez of Georgetown University, Washington DC, Allende's land reform, the break-up of feudal estates (which Pinochet could not fully reverse), created a new class of productive tiller-owners who, along with corporate and co-operative operators, now bring in a stream of export earnings to rival copper.

'In order to have an economic miracle,' says Dr Vasquez, 'maybe you need a socialist government first to commit agrarian reform.' So there we have it. Keynes and Marx saved Chile, not Friedman. But the myth of the free-market miracle persists because it serves a quasi-religious function. Within the faith of the Reaganauts and Thatcherites, Chile provides the necessary Genesis fable, the ersatz Eden from which laissez-faire dogma sprang, successful and shining.

Half a globe away from Chile, an economic experiment is succeeding quietly and bloodlessly. The southern Indian state of Kerala is the laboratory for the humane development theories of Amartya Sen, winner of this year's Nobel Prize for Economics.

Committed to income redistribution and universal social services, Kerala built an economy on intensive public education. As the world's most literate state, it earns its hard currency from exporting technical assistance to Gulf nations. If you've heard little or nothing of Sen and Kerala, maybe it is because they pose an annoying challenge to the neo-liberal consensus.

Last week, the international finance Gang of Four - World Bank, IMF, Inter-American Development Bank and Bank for International Settlements - offered a $41.5 billion line of credit to Brazil. But before the agencies hand over the lifebelt, they want Brazil to swallow the economic medicine that nearly killed Chile. You know the list: fire-sale privatisations, flexible labour markets and deficit reduction through savage cuts in government services and social security.

Here in Sao Paulo the public is assured that these cruel measures will ultimately benefit the average Brazilian. What looks like financial colonialism is sold as the cure-all that had miraculous results in Chile.

But that miracle was a hoax, a fraud, a fairy tale in which everyone did not live happily ever after.

[Boris Godunov]

Fez and Asher:

You're like slot machines. Pop in a coin, pull the handle and out comes the random right-wing bit of mundacity.

Your defensiveness about corporate America is pretty funny. Notice I didn't blame all corporations or all CEOs. But many CEOs and corporate boards are exploiting their companies, looting them and then walking off with huge compensation packages. Then they get firms like Arthur Anderson to cover up their sordid bookkeeping. And then you have companies like Lucent, where the board (made up of a bunch of buddies who are all CEOs of their own company) hire a buddy as CEO, give him a ridiculous salary. That CEO then drives the company into the ground, they "fire" him with an $11 million severance package, and in the same breath they lay off 10,000 workers. Works great, doesn't it? And guess what...the former CEO sits on other boards and work the same deal for his buddies!

It's not just Enron, and if you think that's an isolated case, you must be the ******. It's a sickness all over corporate America, and now the general public is coming to distrust corporations as much as they do politicians (which is only fair).

I know you guys get hysterical whenever anyone dares to impugn your corporate masters, but I think the time has come that we lay the smack-down on these greedy bastards running the show. Dismantle the corporations? No. But make them accountable, dammit, and make it impossible for them to pull the kind of crap Enron did with Arthur Anderson, which was hoodwinking the investors until it was too late.

[chrono353]

This is stupid. The right wants us all to conform and work for small wages. And the left wants us to be unemployed, stupid, and dependant on government handouts and leach off true workers so they get more votes. One wants to hold us down in toil, the other wants to lock us up and live off there scraps.

Pathetic. Both liberals and Cons. Tho I despise liberals more for wanting to destroy the economy to get more votes. Sick and sad

[markusf]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Fez and Asher:


It's not just Enron, and if you think that's an isolated case, you must be the ******. It's a sickness all over corporate America, and now the general public is coming to distrust corporations as much as they do politicians (which is only fair).

I know you guys get hysterical whenever anyone dares to impugn your corporate masters, but I think the time has come that we lay the smack-down on these greedy bastards running the show. Dismantle the corporations? No. But make them accountable, dammit, and make it impossible for them to pull the kind of crap Enron did with Arthur Anderson, which was hoodwinking the investors until it was too late.

I agree boris, these guys have no clue what they are talking about.

You see the Etrade CEO? 80 million a year last year. + 20 million loan, free houses, and if they fire him he gets a 20 million severance package + his loans are forgiven etc etc etc.

In real reality america is already finished as a super power. One just needs to look at india, there are more millionairs/upper class in india then there are people living in the US. Soon china and india will start dictating to the US.