Sharon Acts!

[DanS]

You have to wonder what Pals would be against a provisional Palestinian state...

[KrazyHorse]

The ones that want every single last acre of Israel too.

Getting something approaching a real state would undercut support for the more radical groups...

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Adam Smith
I don't think its quite that, KH, or at least I hope not. There is a hell of a lot of diplomatic work that goes into setting one of these initiatives up. You are dealing with people who have entrenched positions and have hated each other for a long time. The last thing you want is a proposal that is dead on arrival. Not only is the diplomatic effort wasted, but the diplomat takes a credibility hit for the next time around.

That's the thing; it seems like it takes months to set an idea up, but then if there's a serious [ed: sic!] suicide bombing or an Israeli offensive then everybody walks away from the table and things have to start from the beginning...

[Natan]

Actually, it seems like a lot of Palestinians and Arab leaders (IIRC Egypt opposes the plan) are afraid of this because they think the state will either create more conflict or solidify the current PA areas as the boundaries of the Palestinian state. I'm uncomfortable with the idea because it seems like another attempt to "do something" for its own sake rather than a reasoned proposal.

[Lemmy]

i think the big difference between the Isreali acts of aggression ,and the Palestinian acts of aggression, is that the first is being carried out be a democraticly chosen government, technically that means the majority of the Isreali's then agree with it, and if they don't agree, they can send the gov home. The second is being carried out by terrorists, criminals, who may have the support of the palestines, but they can't do much about it.

[Ned]

The assumption that Powell is making is that the violence will end automatically when the Palestinians have a definite timetable for the creation of a Palestinian state. However as others have noted here, terrorist acts seem to be deliberately timed to disrupt the peace process itself. The perpetrators of the terrorist acts, Hamas for example, have never accepted the principle that Israel has a right to exist. Rather their objective seems to be to prevent a settlement on any basis that would "recognize" Israel. If this conclusion is correct, then simply setting a timetable for the creation of a Palestinian state will not end the violence, but may make it worse.

In contrast, Sharon's insistence that there has to be an end to violence prior to any serious peace negotiations seems to mean that there will be no serious peace negotiations in the foreseeable future because the violence obviously will not end so long as groups like to Hamas continue to operate.

It seems to me, therefore, that the only solution available here is to have the United States temporarily occupy Palestine provide security while the negotiations take place. The reason I suggest this is that the Israelis trust us and probably no one else.

[Arrian]

The Israelis don't really trust us, Ned. I honestly don't think the Israeli leaders trust anyone anymore.

US forces in Palestine? That's just ASKING for trouble. The Israelis might be ok with it, but the vast majority of Pals see us as an extension of the Israelis (or vice-versa), so how do you think they would treat US troops?

-Arrian

[Ned]

My assumption, Arrian, is that US forces will be there with the full consent of the PA. They would probably be eager to have US forces substituted for Israeli forces.

Undoubtedly, the US will become targets to the extent we actually try to impose law and order. We must know this and accept the risks.

Once peace is established and the PA is functional, we can withdraw.

[Sirotnikov]

Well most Palestinian extremists really don't like the idea of a preliminary state, since it gives less enthusiasm to suicide bombers.

However, the PA (Arafat and his gang) are afraid of it as well.

Why?

1) It forces Arafat to take responsability for his actions. If he has an actual state and he loses control, he's out, forever.

2) It makes the Palestinians lose their status as "underdog" and "freedom fighters" which the PA is using in it's propoganda.

3) It is seen by Arafat as an attempt by America, Israel and Egypt to push him out of the way.

[Sirotnikov]

They would probably be eager to have US forces substituted for Israeli forces.

Not at all.

They can blame the Israelis of what ever they want since they are 'evil occupiers'.

Once US forces get there, they can no longer be presented as 'evil occupiers' and there is then no possibility of carrying out resistance.

If a terract happens and US forces are hurt, US will evermore quickly come to Israel's aid.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Anyone else see the irony in Sharon's plan? He'll occupy land whenever terrorism takes place, and basically hold it for ransom until the attacks end. Doesn't that sound... I dunno... terrorist?

The Palestinian response... another bombing... provocation is only met by force. Sharon failed at school when they taught diplomacy, I'm sure.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Anyone else see the irony in Sharon's plan? He'll occupy land whenever terrorism takes place, and basically hold it for ransom until the attacks end. Doesn't that sound... I dunno... terrorist?

The Palestinian response... another bombing... provocation is only met by force. Sharon failed at school when they taught diplomacy, I'm sure.

That's the problem though Imran. This isn't a diplomatic situation. It's murder. Murder is a crime. Terrorism is not a diplomatic tool. If the Pals stop the suicide bombings and want to negotiate, I'm sure Sharon would stop the incursions.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Well most Palestinian extremists really don't like the idea of a preliminary state, since it gives less enthusiasm to suicide bombers.

However, the PA (Arafat and his gang) are afraid of it as well.

Why?

1) It forces Arafat to take responsability for his actions. If he has an actual state and he loses control, he's out, forever.

2) It makes the Palestinians lose their status as "underdog" and "freedom fighters" which the PA is using in it's propoganda.

3) It is seen by Arafat as an attempt by America, Israel and Egypt to push him out of the way.

Then why isn't Isreal behind the plan if what you say is true?

[Natan]

Dino: The plan would give Arafat rights and responsibilities. Israel objects to the former, Arafat to the latter.

[Imran Siddiqui]

During the reoccupation you do house by house searching in every city, town and village and kill every gunman on sight. Together with destroying all underground tunnels in Gaza and smuggling routes in Judea&Samaria.

After this, 99% of the weapons, bombs and terrorists are non-existant you leave the cities, remove the isolated settlements and build a huge wall.

As long as all the borders of the Pal territories to the outside world are sealed, there is no way to get more weapons. Therefore, no terrorism.

Sounds familiar... oh yeah Treaty of Versailles! That worked out well .

And doesn't ANY Israeli balk at the idea of the enclosed wall? Doesn't it sound like a GHETTO, like say in Poland?

That's the problem though Imran. This isn't a diplomatic situation. It's murder. Murder is a crime. Terrorism is not a diplomatic tool. If the Pals stop the suicide bombings and want to negotiate, I'm sure Sharon would stop the incursions.

Sharon would stop the incursions!

My ass! Sharon want's the Pals eliminated. He wants the same peace that Hamas wants, but with a different side winning. If the Palestinians stop the suicide bombing then Sharon will just as easily roll over them. This time knowing there will be no reprisals. After all, it was terrorism in the first place that got the Palestinians some governance of the West Bank.

I think Bush should simply recognize the West Bank and Gaza as the State of Palestine, and tell Israel any incursions and you are violating the soveriegnty of Palestine, and we'll do to you what we did to Iraq.