The Swedish and Belgian Commentators : "Do not vote for Israel".

[Ned]

Rogan Josh and Sandman, Your posts make it seem as if it were one of the war aims of Britain to liberate the Jews. I don't think so, but if you can refer me to a link showing that the British government justified declaring war on Germany for this reason, I will stand down on this point.

The Civil War was all about slavery.

[Ned]

Oh, just in case you get me wrong, Britain deserves a lot of credit for standing up to Hitler. There is no doubt that Britain was afforded endless opportunities to end the war, but chose not to. It fought on, against high odds, and eventually prevailed with a little bit of help from its friends.

For this, the world does owe Britain thanks.

But, as far as I know, it took Eisenhower's rubbing everyone's nose in the death camps for the world's attitude about the Jews to change. Eisenhower! is the real "Jewish" hero of WWII.

[axi]

if Arafat sang at the eurovision contest, he would have won

No he wouldn't. Who'd want the next contest to be held in Ramallah, at the tune of the Merkavas?

[Panag]

Originally posted by axi


No he wouldn't. Who'd want the next contest to be held in Ramallah, at the tune of the Merkavas?

hi ,

the mere thought seems to have something in it , .......

have a nice day

[Az]

axi : actually , they're gone now. do you want them to be back?

[Rand Al'Tor]

Huh? When did the Belgian commentator said something like that? In the beginning perhaps? I only phased in when Spain was singing. I DO recall that they said that some people thought 'it was not proper that Israël would sing of peace in the current situation' or something like that.

[Sirotnikov]

Motivation has nothing to do with it - if the British hadn't persevered there would be a hell of a lot more gassed Jews.

Motivation has everything to do with it.

And it's a fact that saving the jews was not one of brittain's goals, but rather a nice side effect.

Declassified intelligence records prove that the brits knew about the holocaust for years before the war ended.

[Arrian]

I would just like to note that the satirical "news" article posted by Sprayber on page 1 was hilarious.

Well, that and to disagree with you Ned in your characterization of the US Civil War. Slavery was a huge factor... in fact THE reason the Southern States wanted out of the Union. They feared that their ever decreasing power in the federal government would eventually lead to abolition. But the motivation for Lincoln was the preservation of the Union, NOT abolition. The Emancipation Proclamation was issued in 1863, and only provided freedom for slaves in states that continued to resist (in other words, give up now and you get to keep your slaves).

Saying that the Civil War was a righteous crusade against slavery is just as silly as saying that the Allies fought Germany in WWII to save the Jews. In both cases, the good guys were fighting for other, less altruistic, reasons.

-Arrian

[Ned]

Arrian, I know the north did not initiate the Civil War to free the slaves. This is true. But is also true that the South seceded due to the election of President Lincoln. Why? Because he was a Republican?

We seem to agree the South's succession had everything to do with the fear that the president would somehow abolish slavery, if not in the South initially, at least in the territories and new states. This would lead, they believed, to a voting majority in the Senate by the free states. This would eventually lead to the abolition of slavery in the South by act of Congress.

It seems to me that this means the war was about slavery.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Arrian
Slavery was a huge factor... in fact THE reason the Southern States wanted out of the Union. They feared that their ever decreasing power in the federal government would eventually lead to abolition. But the motivation for Lincoln was the preservation of the Union, NOT abolition.

Umm... yeah. That's what I said. The South's succession was all about the fear of abolition, but the North's decision to fight was to prevent the succession, not to free slaves. The argument over whether the Civil War was primarily about slavery or succession is like the argument over the chicken and the egg - the two are hopelessly intertwined.

-Arrian

[Ned]

But the reason Germany invaded Poland had nothing to do with the Jews while the reason the South seceded had everything to do with slavery. If all the Jews lived in Poland and Hitler attacked to kill them, then England's declaration of war would have, at least in part, been about saving the Jews. I believe this is the distinction I am trying to make.

[Arrian]

Ok, I'm confused. My intent was merely to point out that the Civil War, from the perspective of the Union (the winners), was not an idealistic crusade against slavery. Some people probably saw it that way, but far more saw it as a war to preserve the Union, including Abe Lincoln.

You granted me that point. Disagreement over, so far as I can see.

If all the Jews lived in Poland and Hitler attacked to kill them, then England's declaration of war would have, at least in part, been about saving the Jews. I believe this is the distinction I am trying to make.

Distinction between this and what? What actually happened (Britain declared war on Germany due to protection pact with Poland)? Or something else. Sorry, you lost me.

-Arrian

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Sweden is full....... and Nazi sympathisers.

It was an accessory in 1940 to the murder of my civilian kin in Trondheim, cheerfully enough allowing free passage and active asistance by rail and port to to the Nazis in 1940.

[Juggernaut]

Hey, we were scared, ok?

[Panag]

Originally posted by Rand Al'Tor
Huh? When did the Belgian commentator said something like that? In the beginning perhaps? I only phased in when Spain was singing. I DO recall that they said that some people thought 'it was not proper that Israël would sing of peace in the current situation' or something like that.

hi ,

the belgian's are even proud of what they did , .......

have a nice day