Sony trash-talks Microsoft, Nintendo

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Originally posted by Asher
. . .I can only conclude that you're trolling.

I could easily say the same thing of you. But since I'm not a mean a$$hole, I'm not going to.

Remember that this is the government that OKed HP-Compaq.

No, actually that was the Bush Administration. The government back then (2 years ago) was the Clinton Administration.

[Asher]

Originally posted by JohnIII
Asher, may I just point out that althoug Microsoft have lots of money, the reason they have lots of money is that they do not throw money away. This 'MS has more money to lose argument' is BS, because if the Xbox starts to look like a failure its stocks will bomb, devaluing the whole company.

Now this is a pile of crap.

You don't understand the implications of the Xbox for MS, do you? Sony and MS are battling over content distribution. PS2 and Xboxes and the trojan horses to the living room. Next thing you know PS3 and Xbox2 will offer video on demand, content streaming, buy your music online, the center of your digital lifestyle.

MS wants in, and badly, and they're throwing their money around like mad to do it. What you're saying is basically a nonissue, because MS is throwing money around. How else do you explain a $500M marketing budget for the North American launch alone? Or the $2B on Xbox Live (which has more capacity than all microsoft.com domains combined), and how they keep selling systems at a loss?

Not that I think this is likely to happen soon, although I am very sceptical about Xbox Live. How does broadband-only jibe with my PC broadband connection? Do they want me to hook the Xbox up to my network?

How you hook it up has nothing to do with MS or Xbox Live, but rather your setup and your service.

You'll either hook it up with a ethernet cable into a switch (what I'll be doing), or into a router to share IPs (an option for some of you) or if you don't have a router or switch you'd plug it into your modem to use it, or invest $40 into a router.

You mean like Microsoft strong-arms OEMs into not installing Linux or FreeBSD?

Yes, exactly like that actually.

I do not see how you expect Nintendo to stop making consoles, what with such a wildly succesful series as the Game Boy.

The Game Boy is not the console I was talking about -- I meant the GameCube in particular. By all means they should consider making the GameBoy series, it's wildly successful for them.

Further, you were really excited about GTA 3, yet criticised Nintendo for making franchise games.

That is different for a few reasons:
Nintendo seems to ONLY rely on their franchises. ALL they seem to make is Mario (fill in the blank), Zelda (fill in the blank), Metroid (fill in the blank), etc. GTA3 is from a third party company, first of all. Second of all, it's a sequel not a franchise. There's a difference.

Also, to the person who wanted ISS, the only real ISS is on a PlayStation. That version on GameCube and Xbox is a pile of crap.

Where do you pull that from?
All of the previews I've seen showed it retaining the same gameplay, but with better graphics and in Dolby Digital 5.1?

Could you link me to some reviews that called it a piece of crap?

No, actually that was the Bush Administration. The government back then (2 years ago) was the Clinton Administration.

You realize this does not help your point at all, seeing that Bush is even more pro-big business than Clinton was?

[JohnIII]

So, let me get this straight. Even if Microsoft loses money on the Xbox and doesn't get 'in' with this home network that they want right now, despite incurring massive losses, their share price will not fall? Sure, you just keep believing that.

Where do you pull that from?

Why, being an ISS fan of course. There are two ISS series running concurrently--the arcadey one and the good one. The arcadey one got its warm-up as ISS on the N64, before becoming ISS (just that) on the PS2, and now ISS2 on Xbox and GameCube. ISS Pro, the good one, was released on the PSX as ISS Pro 98, then ISS Pro Evolution, then ISS Pro Evolution 2, and finally on PSX and PS2 as Pro Evolution Soccer. This is the best football game in existence, the other is pretty similar to FIFA.

The only reviews I've seen are at Amazon.co.uk; there are plenty of positive ones, but the ones any football fan should care about are the negative ones that actually compare it to the other series.

Nintendo seems to ONLY rely on their franchises. ALL they seem to make is Mario (fill in the blank), Zelda (fill in the blank), Metroid (fill in the blank), etc. GTA3 is from a third party company, first of all. Second of all, it's a sequel not a franchise. There's a difference.

Eh?! The new Metroid and Star Fox games are nothing like the originals, unlike GTA3 which is a sequel, i.e. beefed-up version of its predecessor. The new Zelda is aiming to be an interactive cartoon, sort of a cross between an old LucasArts adventure and a Nintendo Zelda game if you will. Name me one Microsoft title that can even compete with the last Zelda (Majora's Mask/Ocarina of Time--take your pick) in terms of fun, depth, or gameplay.

How you hook it up has nothing to do with MS or Xbox Live, but rather your setup and your service.

You'll either hook it up with a ethernet cable into a switch (what I'll be doing), or into a router to share IPs (an option for some of you) or if you don't have a router or switch you'd plug it into your modem to use it, or invest $40 into a router.

Right, thanks, that's OK for me. But Microsoft are expecting hordes of people to go out and buy the networking equipment and acquire the knowledge necessary to make this work?

[Asher]

Originally posted by JohnIII
So, let me get this straight. Even if Microsoft loses money on the Xbox and doesn't get 'in' with this home network that they want right now, despite incurring massive losses, their share price will not fall? Sure, you just keep believing that.

I never said such a thing, you're the only person rambling about share prices, God knows why.

Eh?! The new Metroid and Star Fox games are nothing like the originals, unlike GTA3 which is a sequel, i.e. beefed-up version of its predecessor. The new Zelda is aiming to be an interactive cartoon, sort of a cross between an old LucasArts adventure and a Nintendo Zelda game if you will. Name me one Microsoft title that can even compete with the last Zelda (Majora's Mask/Ocarina of Time--take your pick) in terms of fun, depth, or gameplay.

Do you have any clue what a franchise is?
Do you have any clue what a sequel is?
Do you have any clue what the difference between the two is?

And for the MS title, I'm going to pick Blinx. Most revolutionary platform game I've seen for a while. Cell-shading/interactive cartoon in Zelda is hardly new (ever played Jet Grind Radio on Dreamcast, or Jet Set Radio Future on Xbox?).

Then again, Project Ego and BC and Psychonauts are all so very interesting, it'll be cool to see how they turn out.

Nintendo prides themselves on their franchises. In their press conference they kept referring to them as "Game Giants" because they've been around so long. They seem to think it's a good idea, but it's not going to boost sales like they seem to think. Truth is, most people who like Mario, Star Fox, and Metroid already own a Gamecube with the promises of those games coming.

Most gamers seem to be tired of Nintendo's franchise games, and I guarantee you they'll be sick of GTA games come GTA4 or 5 too.

Right, thanks, that's OK for me. But Microsoft are expecting hordes of people to go out and buy the networking equipment and acquire the knowledge necessary to make this work?

Nope, they're only expecting probably tens of thousands of subscribers in 2002, maybe 100,000 by 2003. They're going for the long term, where broadband will have higher penetration and where more gamers will have hookups with broadband. And let's be serious here, if you want to play games so badly online you can buy the simple router for $40.

PS2 and Gamecube will require the exact same thing, it's not a MS specific problem.

[JohnIII]

You are the one saying MS are pumping so much into their online efforts . Besides, ISTR that the others don't need broadband...maybe I'm wrong?

There is a difference between cel-shading and attempting to make an interactive cartoon, or haven't you looked at the Zelda game yet?

Blinx...is that first-party? I was sure it was being made by some Japanese bods.

[Asher]

Originally posted by JohnIII
You are the one saying MS are pumping so much into their online efforts . Besides, ISTR that the others don't need broadband...maybe I'm wrong?

I am saying they're pumping so much in their online efforts. It's been in the newspapers, on C|Net, on IGN, on GameSpot...

The other consoles need broadband for some games, they just don't tell gamers that upfront because they want the narrowband people to buy the modems still. SOCOM, for the PS2 for example, is broadband only.

The problem with developing narrowband games is it's LAGGY. Ask anyone who tried Dreamcast online with the 56K. Allowing 56Kers on Xbox Live would cause lag and it would cause developers to develop for the lowest common denominator, meaning 56K. So all network bandwidth needs to fit in the 56K's pipe, which is a joke for modern online gaming.

56Ks are mainly for checking email and moderate surfing, real gamers have broadband (50% of Xbox owners already have broadband, more expect to get it just for Xbox Live)

There is a difference between cel-shading and attempting to make an interactive cartoon, or haven't you looked at the Zelda game yet?

I have, and it looks like an interactive cartoon. But then again so does JSRF. Albeit a more "cool" cartoon while Zelda has a "kiddie" feel to it. It's pretty amazing, considering that Nintendo claims it doesn't make kiddie games, whilst at the same time announcing a cartoon Zelda, a game called "Mario Sunshine" (Mario 64 with a waterpack -- how INNOVATIVE)....

Blinx...is that first-party? I was sure it was being made by some Japanese bods.

Yes, it's first party (or second party at least -- MS is funding it) by the same guy who made Sonic.

There are Japanese companies making exclusive Xbox content you know. Like Tecmo making Dead or Alive series and Ninja Gaiden Xbox Exclusives, Sega making Panzer Dragoon Orta, Jet Set Radio Future, Crazy Taxi, etc exclusively for Xbox.

It's quite amazing the talent that MS has assembled for first and second party companies now:
Ensemble Studios (Age of Empires)
Bungie (Halo)
Big Huge Games (you know, Brian Reynolds' company)
Tremor Entertainment (formed by ex-employees of Blizzard)
Big Blue Box (Peter Molyneaux company -- who is making 3 Xbox games by the way)
The team behind Sonic for (forget the name)
Tim Schaefer and his company
etc

Not to mention with people like John Carmack porting the DOOM II Engine to Xbox, and Tim Sweeney porting the Unreal 2 engine to Xbox, I'd say there's ample talent around.

[JohnIII]

Originally posted by Asher
Big Huge Games (you know, Brian Reynolds' company)
Big Blue Box (Peter Molyneaux company -- who is making 3 Xbox games by the way)

Those are two of the most over-rated developers out there, right there. Blizzard are crap, too.

BTW, BBB are a satellite of Lionhead, as are Intrepid, who are making BC for the Xbox. One more for you .

It still boggles the mind to think that companies like Blizzard survive while Looking Glass went under. Looking Glass were, by some distance, the best Western developers around. Only Rare and LucasArts could run them close.

My narrowband experiences with Quake 3 and Unreal Tournament were both very favourable, as it happens.

Albeit a more "cool" cartoon while Zelda has a "kiddie" feel to it.

So kiddie isn't cool? Some people's sense of cool seems seriously whacked.

If Mario Sunshine is 'Mario 64 with a waterpack', then Blinx is Mario 64 with a TiVo.

[Asher]

Originally posted by JohnIII
Those are two of the most over-rated developers out there, right there. Blizzard are crap, too.

There goes your credibility.

My narrowband experiences with Quake 3 and Unreal Tournament were both very favourable, as it happens.

Do you still have Quake 3 installed?
Perhaps we could deathmatch and see how favourable your dialup is against my broadband.

So kiddie isn't cool? Some people's sense of cool seems seriously whacked.

Yeah, try most of the video game market.

Look how "wildly" successful N64 was versus the PSX.

If Mario Sunshine is 'Mario 64 with a waterpack', then Blinx is Mario 64 with a TiVo.

How can you even say that?
Blinx is a platformer, that does not equal Mario 64.

Nintendo admits during interviews that Mario Sunshine is nothing more than a sequel to Mario 64. To make it play slightly differently, he gets a water pack that never runs out of water. I'm not saying SMS is Mario 64 with a waterpack because it's a platformer with Mario, I'm saying it because the enemies are the same, the levels are extremely similar, and it's been called a sequel (originally in development as Mario 64 2 for the N64 before being moved and renamed to the GC).

Even if they were Mario 64 clones (which Blinx certainly is not), spraying water in a game isn't innovative anyway. A TiVo type gameplay most certainly IS. And I'm looking forward to it.

[JohnIII]

There goes your credibility.

Says a 'man' who thinks Big Huge Games count as a good developer.

I don't have Quake 3 installed, and I'm on broadband now.

Yeah, try most of the video game market.

I know...look at how 'cool' the Sims was, and how much that sold. Look at how 'cool' Pokemon was.

[Asher]

Originally posted by JohnIII
I know...look at how 'cool' the Sims was, and how much that sold. Look at how 'cool' Pokemon was.

The Sims was successful because of the women (untapped market).
Pokemon was successful because of the kids (much like Power Rangers was successful).

I'm not arguing that Nintendo won't be successful, but it's a niche market for kids that they're aiming for. They've got third party people putting out the odd "mature" game (like RE), but for the most part their games are aimed towards kids. Hell, the cube ships in purple.

There's a difference between mainstream gamer success and trying to have moderate continued success with kids.

[JohnIII]

So, what you are saying is, two of best-selling games ever were in 'minority' markets? Genius!

[Asher]

No, what I'm saying is two of the best selling games ever were not successful because of mainstream gamers.

Do you understand any of these terms I've been using? It doesn't appear so. Franchise, Sequel, Mainstream. Look them up.

Very, very few mainstream gamers play Pokemon or The Sims. They were successful by other gamers, but those gamers were certainly not the mainstream one. Many people who play The Sims have never played a video game in their life before, and Pokemon is...well, Pokemon is inexplicable, but it's for kids again.

I don't think I can explain that any clearer.

Just because something's successful in the game industry does not mean it's enjoyed by mainstream gamers. Comprende?

Mario & Co will be successful, as they always will, but it won't reach the success of titles like GTA3 or MGS2. Not many people are interested in Mario & Co anymore, hence the relative unsuccessful life of the N64 and the fairly dull Gamecube launch.

[JohnIII]

Exactly. And your average mainstream gamer is the kind of person who will fall over his own feet to get another Metal Gear Solid, another Quake, another...Zelda?

Your definition of mainstream is...what? I can't figure it out, it would seem to be North American gamers rather than, e.g., Japanese gamers.

[Asher]

I don't live in Japan, why would I be talking about their gamers? Japanese gamers are very, very different from American ones.

I'm talking North America, where I happen to live, and where most of the games I enjoy come from.

And yes, the average mainstream gamer will fall over his own feet to get another copy of MGS, another Quake, but NOT another Zelda. You see, the mainstream gamer doesn't have that much of an attention span. Notice how Tomb Raider games died out pretty quick?

Zelda's been around forever, and there's not much they can do to the game gameplay wise anymore -- so what do they do? They make it a cartoon. Yeah, that's the ticket.

As I said, after GTA4 comes out it'll be uncool to like GTA anymore. It's like gamer popculture.

[CapTVK]

As Glonk has no problems coming up with selective 'facts' (without a source) and throwing out statements or reports that don't coincide with his POV. I thought it would be helpful to present some weekly sales figures from Japan. These figures come from Famitsu, a well known and respected gaming magazine which has been listing these hardware sales (collected from retailers, not the manufacturers) charts for years.

http://www.famitsu.com/game/hard/week/index.html

This one is the most recent hardware chart...


I can see how XBOX quadrupled their sales!