Anti-zionism is anti-semitism?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus
I'm confused...

care to say that again Ned? I think I'm missing something.

Self determination requires (and I am willing to bet others have written on this topic better than below):

1) A people who have a separate identity of self - a separate culture if you wish;

2) They occupy a geography where they are the majority; and

3) They cannot maintain their culture, i.e., their civil, religious or other rights, because they live under a government that does not guarantee those rights, i.e., there a tyranny of the larger majority in a greater geography.

Democracy does not cure this, because democracies, as opposed to constitutional republics like the United States, are simply tryannies of the majority.

Based upon the above, I believe the Jews of Palestine have a right to their own state.

(So do the Kurds for that matter.)

Ned

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Lincoln
Jews already have a state. It is called the state of Israel. The question is moot. The only question that remains is, do some people want to expell the Jews now from their homeland?

Noone here wants to send the jews out in a second diasporah (I think ) but we want equal rights for the palestinians. I don´t really care if they disband the state of Israel and creates a larger secularized Palestine for jews and arabs alike or go for the two state solution. We just want the bloodshed to end.

[chequita guevara]

Every nation has the right to a state. No nation has the right to an exclusive state. Croatia, for example, was a racist state when it defined itself as the state of the Croatian people, and there are these other people who live here too whom we give rights to, blah blah, blah. Israel is a similar state. It needs to give the same rights to all its people, instead of merely the Jewish ones.

[Sandman]

I think 'self'-determination is a complete waste of time. Look what happened in the Balkans.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Croatia, for example, was a racist state when it defined itself as the state of the Croatian people

Right on!

The whole area was best under Tito... when you didn't have as much ethnic tension and people saying this side is racially better.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Kamrat X


Noone here wants to send the jews out in a second diasporah (I think ) but we want equal rights for the palestinians. I don´t really care if they disband the state of Israel and creates a larger secularized Palestine for jews and arabs alike or go for the two state solution. We just want the bloodshed to end.

I am very sure the vast majority of this Planet, let alone the people of Palestine, want peace and an end to the violence. However there are some, and many here on Apolyton support this, that want Land before they are willing to give Peace.

Land for Peace.

Ned

[Imran Siddiqui]

However there are some, and many here on Apolyton support this, that want Land before they are willing to give Peace.

Yep

[Sirotnikov]

Noone here wants to send the jews out in a second diasporah (I think ) but we want equal rights for the palestinians. I don´t really care if they disband the state of Israel and creates a larger secularized Palestine for jews and arabs alike or go for the two state solution. We just want the bloodshed to end

Two states sounds good.

However, go read what the Palestinian school books say about the two states solution. Or Jews in general.

Every nation has the right to a state. No nation has the right to an exclusive state. Croatia, for example, was a racist state when it defined itself as the state of the Croatian people, and there are these other people who live here too whom we give rights to, blah blah, blah. Israel is a similar state. It needs to give the same rights to all its people, instead of merely the Jewish ones.

It does give the same rights to all of it's people. But it's still an ethnic state. I see nothing wrong with that. Each nation should have the right to have it's own state. Other people can live there if they want to accept that nationality.

But most of the world is not ready for the political nationality of the USA and Canada.

Immigration policy is a different matter. No immigration policy is really democratic.

[Sirotnikov]

Yep

He meant you Imran

[Imran Siddiqui]

He meant you Imran

No **** sherlock, and if he thought he was insulting with that remark, then he failed.

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Ned


I am very sure the vast majority of this Planet, let alone the people of Palestine, want peace and an end to the violence. However there are some, and many here on Apolyton support this, that want Land before they are willing to give Peace.

Land for Peace.

Ned

This is the biggest problem IMO. Land for peace or peace for land? Neither side trust the other and therefore the bloodshed continues.

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

However, go read what the Palestinian school books say about the two states solution. Or Jews in general.

Obviously both sides must work on their attitude against the other. Trust must be built between the arabs and jews, and you can´t do that if both sides describes the other as the lowest form of life on the face of the planet.

[Saint Marcus]

Democracy does not cure this, because democracies, as opposed to constitutional republics like the United States, are simply tryannies of the majority.

Now that's the part I don't understand.

You are saying that a multicultural society only exists in the USA? Or are you saying something else entirely?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus


Now that's the part I don't understand.

You are saying that a multicultural society only exists in the USA? Or are you saying something else entirely?

I can refer you to the Federalist Papers for a better explanation, but our founding fathers REALLY were afraid of pure or representative democracies where the power lay solely in the hands of the majority party. They believed you really had to have three independent branches, a constitution that protects essential rights, and a Supreme Court that keeps the other two branches in check and that can guarantee individual rights against even theacts and legislation of the other two.

When I say democracy, I really mean the kind where the power is in the hands of the largest party in the legislature. This our founding fathers thought was a tyranny of the majority. In such a democracy, the rights of the minority are not secure.

Ned

[Sandman]

A tyranny of the majority is precisely what the US was, until the blacks got the vote.