Anti-zionism is anti-semitism?

[Natan]

S. Kroeze, there is absolutely no reason to believe that anti-Zionist Orthodox jews will be a majority of world Jewry when they're a tiny and isolated minority within Orthodox Jewry.

I define a Jew by his religion, the observing of halakhah.
Do you observe halakhah?

Most Israelis are NO Jews!

No Orthodox Jew uses this definition. None, zip, nada. You're misinterperting them here bigtime. It's because even a Jewish apostate is a Jew that we have this whole thing about maternal descent.

[Az]

Imran : nice one. It proves that in a certain case , these don't coexist. This case, however has nothing to do with your stance. .

you're giving way too much weight to Natan's opinion anyway.

[Az]

what a boring ME thread is this.

[S. Kroeze]

Dear Natan,

Allow me to remind you of this previous post:

quote:
The acceptance of the yoke of halakhah is seen by many as the distinctive essence of Judaism. According to the Orthodox, halakhah is God-given and must be obeyed. The Progressive movements, while reverencing the halakhah, do not accept its binding obligation in every aspect of life. In so doing, Progressive Jews are perceived by their Orthodox co-religionists as rejecting the point and purpose of the tradition. Hence Reform rabbis are not accepted, and Reform proselytes are not believed to be Jews. Thus it is their unconditional adherence to halakhah, that Orthodox Jews define themselves and their commitment."

"Orthodox Judaism Traditional Judaism. The term 'Orthodoxy' was first applied in Judaism in 1795 as a distinction between those who accepted the written and oral law as divinely inspired and those who identified with the Reform movement. The Orthodox believe that they are the sole practitioners of the Jewish religious tradition and regard non-Orthodox rabbis as laypeople and non-Orthodox proselytes as gentiles. Orthodoxy involves submission to the demands of the halakhah as enshrined in the written and oral law and in the subsequent codes and responsa.

"Right, and IMHO, (some will disagree) Orthodox Judaism is the Judaism which was practiced for some 1500-2000 years before the other sects showed up, and is therefore the real deal."

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by S. Kroeze
"Whoever denies the Torah and the Faith is no longer part of the people of Israel."

I define a Jew by his religion, the observing of halakhah.
Do you observe halakhah?

Most Israelis are NO Jews!

Guess what?

Neither you, nor Neturei Karta, have any monopoly over Judaism. You do not have an authority to decide who is a Jew and who isn't


Other than that, being a jew is very much about ethnicity, as genetics prove that Jews are an ethnicity. As I told Imran in another thread, there's gonna be an article published about one research which proves it in American Journal of Human Genetics.

Perhaps at this very moment most Orthodox Jews support Zionism. Yet a century ago ALL Orthodox Jews opposed Zionism.
And in the year 2100 it is highly probable that 'true Jews' will again outnumber Israelis.

You're talking nonsense.

Israeli Jews are a small part of world Jewry, out of which, less than 15% are Orthodox.

Your claims are based on misconceptions, and are mostly there because they are comfortable for you to believe in.

In the end only the truly Orthodox will preserve Judaism.
The apostates will vanish among the gentiles and will be forgotten....

You know you sound like some crazy ultra-religious git?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Other than that, being a jew is very much about ethnicity, as genetics prove that Jews are an ethnicity. As I told Imran in another thread, there's gonna be an article published about one research which proves it in American Journal of Human Genetics.

*cough* Bull**** *cough*

Hey look, if I convert to Judaism tomorrow, I can be part of another ethnicity . Maybe the next day I'll declare myself to be of Mexican ethnicity!

[Sirotnikov]

"Right, and IMHO, (some will disagree) Orthodox Judaism is the Judaism which was practiced for some 1500-2000 years before the other sects showed up, and is therefore the real deal."

This is utter nonsense.

Orthodox Judaism sprung about in the 1700s in eastern europe, as a reaction to the springing reformation and liberalization movements in western europe.

The Orthosox Judaism, insists on keeping things the way they were in the 1700, claiming like the catholic church, that the scriptures are sacred and shouldn't be touched.

This is an anti-thesis to all the great scholars which rose to

The Talmud itself says that after the Bible has left God's hands (so to speak) it is the people's to interpert and to have opinions about.

And the Orthodox are saying that no opinions are allowed, and only their conservative view is legitimate.

Again, don't talk about things that you have no idea about.

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
It proves that point that being anti-Israel is not anti-Semitism .

No it doesn't.

It says that being anti-national isn't anti-semitism, a notion with which we all agreed.

It is when you isolate Jews especially, that you become anti-semitic.

[Imran Siddiqui]

It says that being anti-national isn't anti-semitism, a notion with which we all agreed

You apparently didn't... you had to be rebuked by Natan .

[Sirotnikov]

Dear, Imran, once again proving yourself to be an idiot.

As I've said - there are several ways in which one could be a Jew.

Ethnically - Religiously - Nationally.

There are ethnical and religious jews with no national Jewish aspirations.

Sadly, your thought has not evolved enough to accomodate all of these confusing things, therefore you are aruging with me.

You are of pakistani ethnicity, deist faith and american nationality.

I am of jewish-european ethnicity, liberal jewish faith, israeli-jewish nationality.

Judaism is a name of an ethnicity, and a religion and a nationality.

Granted, between the fall of the last Jewish Kingdom and until the birth of Zionism, Jewish nationality was pretty much non-existant.

However, it was revived or reborn.

Denying that is like denying the Palestinian nationalism.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

It says that being anti-national isn't anti-semitism, a notion with which we all agreed

You apparently didn't... you had to be rebuked by Natan .

I have no idea why he said that to me and Eli. I thought so all along - I infact said that Jaako is not an antisemite because he is generally against the idea of nations.

Eli also said it in his proposed definition of when anti-zionism equals anti-semitism.

You are arguing against what you think we are saying.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Judaism is a name of an ethnicity, and a religion and a nationality.

*BZZZZT* Wrong!

Judaism is the name of a religion. Hebrew is a name of an ethnicity and nationality. Judaism DOES NOT EQUAL Hebrew. People that turn to Judaism do NOT change their ethnicity!

[Sirotnikov]

Imran - there is no such thing "hebrew".

It's jew. jew jew jew. jew jew jew jew jew. (your worse nightmare is hearing this playing in your head, huh? )

in any case - most of those who belive in judaism are also of jewish ethnicity (what you call hebrew) and a great deal of them are of jewish nationality and are zionists.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Judaism is the religion of the Hebraic peoples. If you convert you DO NOT change ethnicity, it is the stupidest thing I've ever heard! If that is true, then I'm going to declare myself having Cuban ethnicity tomorrow, because I feel like it .

For you to be even close to correct you have to say that the Jewish people is something different than people that are Jews.

[moomin]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I'm going to declare myself having Cuban ethnicity tomorrow, because I feel like it .

What's to stop you? You'd even collect some AA points, no?

[Sirotnikov]

Imran - no one said that by converting you change your ethnicity.

However due to juadism's closed society (until recently) and due to jewish persecution, there were very little conversions to judaism.

there still are very little such conversions.

that is why most jews by religion are also jews (hebrews ) by ethnicity.