Did the Axis have any chance at all in WWII?

[David Floyd]

I don't think that England would risk German retaliations against their cities.

I disagree. Read some of Churchill's writings.

[Serb]

Re: Misconceptions...

Originally posted by Chris 62
The T-34 data is also inaccurate, none were in service in 39 or 1940.
The first prototype wasn't ready till September of 1940, so it wouldn't be availible in Poland or in the battle of France time period.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/t-34.htm

I said that it was already invented in1939, not that it was put in mass production in 1939.
A quote from your source:"The T-34 was a technologically innovative design which addressed the short-comings of the earlier BT series of wheel/track tank. The T-34 was developed during the 1936-37 period, the prototype was completed in early 1939, ..."

[David Floyd]

I said that it was already invented in1939, not that it was put in mass production in 1939.
A quote from your source:"The T-34 was a technologically innovative design which addressed the short-comings of the earlier BT series of wheel/track tank. The T-34 was developed during the 1936-37 period, the prototype was completed in early 1939, ..."

The US had a prototype F-22 years ago...but we still have no more than 8 or so in service, and those are not combat ready in any significant sense.

Against Pz1s and IIs, Russia would have little need for T-34s anyway.

[Cavalcadeus]

Originally posted by David Floyd
I disagree. Read some of Churchill's writings.

Could you point me to a site where I could find these writings? I don't feel like going through all of Churchill's speaches and writings.

[Serb]

Originally posted by David Floyd


The US had a prototype F-22 years ago...but we still have no more than 8 or so in service, and those are not combat ready in any significant sense.

You are too slow then.
Quote:
"In August 1938 the High War Council, let by People's Commissar for Defense, K. J. Voroshilov, discussed the A-20 and T-32. Many on the Council disliked the T-32. In July 1939, the Kharkov Locomotive Factory had completed the prototypes for the A-20 and T-32. They were both then tested and it was decided to go with the T-32. On December 19, 1939, the People's Commissariat for Defense released the T-32 to the Red Army. It was soon designated the T-34.

Some models were sent to fight in the Finno-Russian war, but they arrived too late to be put into combat.

In June 1941, there were 1,225 that had been produced. First put into battle against the Germans in June 1941 at Grondno in Belorussia."

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/html/ussr/t34.html

[David Floyd]

Actually I'd recommend his WW2 5 volume history - The Gathering Storm, Their Finest Hour, The Grand Alliance, Hinge of Fate, and Closing the Ring.

While biased to a British perspective in many ways, they do provide good insight on British politics and thinking, which, IMO, is their greatest value.

[Cavalcadeus]

I'll check that out. Thanks.

[David Floyd]

In June 1941, there were 1,225 that had been produced. First put into battle against the Germans in June 1941 at Grondno in Belorussia."

Excuse me. Smolensk was the first time *significant* numbers were seen - and they were still brushed aside by the Germans, even though they had inferior tanks.

You are too slow then.

I guess, but then again we have actually useful aircraft, such as the F-15, while the T-2 was utterly useless in 1941.

[David Floyd]

I'll check that out. Thanks.

It's fairly old, I have a set but I've ever seen the books in local libraries. Good luck

[KrazyHorse]

It would have to be...

[David Floyd]

What would?

[KrazyHorse]

Anything written by Churchill.

[Chris 62]

The design was excellent, but it wasn't a prototype untill late 1940, Serb.

Test bed vehicles are far from combat ready, they aren't the same as true prototype.

It might be worth noting that soviet doctrone was to use a large number of different types in the same formation, and to disperse armor to infantry formations for close support.

The mention of the rush to reach the finnish front is indicative of the fact that it wasn't ready yet, as the Finns were finished in March of 1940.

The Soviets still needed to work on larger armor formations, most were "tank heavy" (To many tanks, not enough motorized support infantry) and thus were vulnerable to defeat even with better equipment.

It won't be till "Uranus" (Stalingrad counterattack) is launched that Soviet Armor formations make breakthroughs in German lines.
(The Moscow attacks were of a tactical nature, they never broke the German lines completely and followed through with a breakout in 41)

[Cavalcadeus]

I know the local librarian fairly well. I'll try to talk her into finding me a copy.

[David Floyd]

(The Moscow attacks were of a tactical nature, they never broke the German lines completely and followed through with a breakout in 41)

Further, if we assume 100-200,000 more Russian losses in 1941 (in Typhoon), and Moscow falling, these attacks are probably repulsed by the Germans.

The Soviets still needed to work on larger armor formations, most were "tank heavy" (To many tanks, not enough motorized support infantry) and thus were vulnerable to defeat even with better equipment.

Yes, and IMO the Germans had a much better grasp on fluid, mobile battle, hence their successful battles of Vernichtungsgedanke (encirclemant/annihilation) on the Eastern Front throughout the war.

Cav,

I know the local librarian fairly well. I'll try to talk her into finding me a copy.

IMO they are well worth it, if you have the time to read through them.