US Opts Out of World Court

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
It provides a level of accountability to the ROW, Dino...

What accountability? Accountability is meaningless without somesort of enforcement mechanism to back it up.

How would the level of accountability be any different from that that exists now?

[Grrr]

You know, it is people like Bush, and arrogant Americans like Floyd, that make me sure the US will instigate a third world war.

[David Floyd]

If the UN beats us in a war, yes.

Ah! Well as usual, it comes down to "might makes right."

So if I beat you up and steal your wallet is that OK?

The constitution does not provide for the Supreme Court to be able to use judicial review... it is extropolated from it. Enforcement mechanisms are things that are made.

That's certainly true, but then again you can't go around extrapolating things from treaties, or pretty soon you'll have treaties that mean more than they were intended.

Further, I think that if an enforcement mechanism such as Nuremburg had been included, many countries would have rejected it, but irregardless, the point is that it did not.

Oh, and didn't you know David, might makes right. This ICC (and to a certain extent ICJ) is trying to stop this and apply 'rights' to all citizens and countries. You should be happy with it.

Hmm, so might makes right until the ICC says it doesn't? What?

[TCO]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

We are the good guys. If you want to look for problems there are more rich opportunities elsewhere.

Yes, we are the good guys. So we should sign international agreements to show that people should abide by international law.

This is part of the issue. People feeling "valiant" for signing an agreement. (Moral masturbation--Right action is what makes you the good guy. Not what piece of paper you sign.)

[KrazyHorse]

Imran

And? How many counts of murder was it? Something over 300 IIRC. Your criminal code seems remarkably lax in this case. This is a tenth the body count of the WTC. I'm sure that Bin Laden will be freed into house arrest after 20 years.

Face it; the US Army doesn't care that much if their soldiers go nutbar and put a village to the sword because it's not Americans who are dying. Nothing special about the US in this, just a fact of life. No accountability to victims&families = no interest in vigorous pursuit of justice.

[David Floyd]

You know, it is people like Bush, and arrogant Americans like Floyd, that make me sure the US will instigate a third world war.

Keeping in mind I oppose almost every war the US has ever fought, how in HELL can you say I'll contribute to WW3?

[Grrr]

Your viewpoints on this topic, David.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by DinoDoc


What accountability? Accountability is meaningless without somesort of enforcement mechanism to back it up.

How would the level of accountability be any different from that that exists now?

Don't be dense, Dino. By signing off on this the US would have to allow someone else access to its soldiers in case of trial. If they don't pony them up then they're breaking their word. If you hadn't noticed, that's all the enforcement that's possible with treaties with large nations.

[David Floyd]

Funny, the League of Nations didn't stop WW2, why should the ICC stop WW3?

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by GP


This is part of the issue. People feeling "valiant" for signing an agreement. (Moral masturbation--Right action is what makes you the good guy. Not what piece of paper you sign.)

Right action is handing over soldiers to impartial court, not trying them in front of their own side for the murder of people from somewhere else.

[David Floyd]

Right action is handing over soldiers to impartial court, not trying them in front of their own side for the murder of people from somewhere else.

I believe that would violate the UCMJ, although I could be wrong.

[KrazyHorse]

Change UCMJ.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Grrr
Your viewpoints on this topic, David.

The only way David would start a war is if he caught Putin in his home trying to steal his VCR.



Seriously, Floyd's not a warmonger, you're making assumptions. If anything, he's TOO reluctant to go to war, which is probably much better than the other extreme, isn't it?

[Imran Siddiqui]

So when are you going to take up arms on BUSH before he kills millions.

Why would Bush kill millions? There is no proof to back that up. But when a dictator writes that he will kill all the Jews in Europe and then becomes a totalitarian leader... I'd say there would be a fear, he'd do something like that, wouldn't you?

So if I beat you up and steal your wallet is that OK?

If there was no government, yes. The government is mightier than I am, though.

That's certainly true, but then again you can't go around extrapolating things from treaties, or pretty soon you'll have treaties that mean more than they were intended.

So you'd support SCOTUS not having the right of judicial review?

Hmm, so might makes right until the ICC says it doesn't? What?

Kind of. You would need some might to enforce it. But countries or people in them would give up their criminals (like Yugoslavia), therefore, with the changing mentality, the whole 'might makes right' argument calls. Of course, you could call the UN then the mightiest, with support from almost all the member nations, if it comes to that.

And? How many counts of murder was it? Something over 300 IIRC. Your criminal code seems remarkably lax in this case. This is a tenth the body count of the WTC. I'm sure that Bin Laden will be freed into house arrest after 20 years.

Face it; the US Army doesn't care that much if their soldiers go nutbar and put a village to the sword because it's not Americans who are dying. Nothing special about the US in this, just a fact of life. No accountability to victims&families = no interest in vigorous pursuit of justice.

I ain't saying it was right, I was just disputing that he wasn't tried. If the first verdict stood, he'd be still doing hard labor.

Funny, the League of Nations didn't stop WW2, why should the ICC stop WW3?

You can make the case that perhaps the UN stopped WW3, so... .

[David Floyd]

Actually I do support making the UCMJ challengeable under the US Constitution.

But I also believe that were you to change the UCMJ on this issue, you'd have to give every US soldier the option to get out of the military with no penalty.