Palestinians falsifying evidence for the UN comitte

[gopher]

damn threadjackers

[Ned]

For what it's worth, I saw an interview with one of the Jenin fighters on either FOX NEWS or MSNBC, I can't recall which because I am a real channel flipper betweeb the two. The fighter proudly described his fight against the IDF. They had about 100 fighters and they held off the IDF for days, inflicting dozens of casualties on the IDF. Most of the time, the two sides were only meters apart.

Israel ended the struggle by bringing in bulldozers to flatten the defender's buildings.

The fighter reported that he saw no massacres. However, unless those buildings were empty of civilians, a lot of people could still be found in the rubble.

Question: Assuming the building were still occupied by civilians, was Israel justified in using bulldozers in the way it did?

If the answer is no, and war crimes were committed, then the Americans who fought WWII are equally as guilty. We flattened Monte Casino. We firebombed Cologne and Dresden and made a ruin of Hamburg and Berlin. We destroyed virtually every large city in Japan.

The rape of Nanking was small potatoes compared to the mass murder committed by the United States.

Shall we put the American survivors of WWII on trial? Should we ban the Democratic Party as the Nazi party was banned?

I am alive today because my Dad survived WWII. He was a company commander in the Pacific Theater. Undoubtedly, he would have been among the forces that would have landed on the beaches of Japan. Everyone was predicting a bloodbath for American troops. A million dead was the estimate. My Dad would probably have died. So I owe my life, as do many Americans owe their lives, to the actions of the Democratic Party leadership in 1945 that made the calls they did.

These are tough questions.

Now think of a war where the American military was handcuffed by political concerns: Vietnam. Whether the United States ever should have gotten involved in that war is not the question. But the way we fought the war, with one hand tied behind our back, only resulted in a bloodbath for both American and North Vietnamese troops. Despite America's overwhelming superiority in resources, America lost the war and had nothing to show for the sacrifice of so many American citizens. Rather than the world putting the Democratic Party leadership on trial for war crimes, the American people (by voting for Bobby Kennedy) told Johnson to leave, and he did.

Now think of yourself as an American soldier in WWII or Vietnam, or an Israeli solder in Jenin. Would you be willing to lay down your life to protect the lives of enemy civilians? I think not.

These are deeply troubling questions that occur in every war. Choices have to be made. Ugly choices.

So, now, what if the UN determines that flattening those buildings with civilians inside was a war crime? Are they going to try to arrest Sharon and the IDF leadership? That would, I believe, lead to an Israeli withdrawal from the United Nations. It might also lead to an U.S. withdrawal. It certainly will not be conducive to peace, and would further polarize the world.

Whoever is behind the U.N. commission is aggressively anti-Israeli. If the UN ever had any credibility on this conflict, they have now lost it. The spiral into a world war quickens.

Ned

[MrFun]

Let's just let everyone have their fair share of strawberries, and spread the peace and love.

[Lonestar]

Re: Re: Palestinians falsifying evidence for the UN comitte

Originally posted by gopher


So how many bodies does it take to be classified a massacre?

Going on the Boston Massacre....


5

[Urban Ranger]

Siro,

You are going hysterical. Chill out.

[The Mad Monk]

If they are stupid enough to dig up cemetaries to fill mass graves, it will be easy enough to determine by examining the bodies for degree of decomposition.

Do Palestinian burial practice include the use of preservatives, perfumes or other materials?

[Ecthy]

I agree with UR.

[Adalbertus]

Ned,

Terror attacks on civilians, as the bombing of many German cities were, was a war crime. The only reason why this was not sued is the fact that it were the winners who did do so. Especially the bombing of Dresden (January or February 1945) city centre only, lots of refugees, no industry, falls into this category. The war was decided at this time, and it had no military sense. (The same holds for German bomb raids on civilians, of course).

The nuclear bombs on Japan were a different thing. Not that I am really happy about it, and one would have been enough, but it changed the war, and helped to avoid another few million dead people (Americans and Japanese). And I think it helped also to keep the cold war cold and to avoid India and Pakistan going to war on the parliament terract last december or january.

In the example with the building, things are really tougher to decide. This would be a case where I even would advocate chemical warfare: Buildings are an excellent chance to throw in some narcoting substance. Take people outside and look who is civilian, who is terrorist. Even if certainly against some laws, I wouldn't blame Israel for *that*.

More about the Jenin thing: What I really don't understand is that Israel isn't pressing to get the investigators to Jenin. They have a right (and duty) to take care that they have the expertise and are as little biased as possible. But if Israel has nothing to hide it is better to have it done quickly than to give Palestinians the time to cheat.

[Adalbertus]

MrFun unmasked

Let's just let everyone have their fair share of strawberries, and spread the peace and love.

So here you finally show up as the one you really are: An anti-bananaist!!!

[Sirotnikov]

, but it changed the war, and helped to avoid another few million dead people

We could say the same for operation defensive shield.

A conflict requires a quick solution.

If we drag it, the bodies simply pile up.

[Sirotnikov]

German newspaper reported that al-qiada plans to kidnap dozens of germans and french people and demand the release of al-qaida prisoners.

with terrorists it's better to take no prisoners.

[Ecthy]

Now I get that logic... if you take prisoners, others will cause damage to get them free, good point actually.

What can be done about that without killing people? I know a solution: A therapy, then set them free

[Ned]

Originally posted by Adalbertus
Ned,

Terror attacks on civilians, as the bombing of many German cities were, was a war crime. The only reason why this was not sued is the fact that it were the winners who did do so. Especially the bombing of Dresden (January or February 1945) city centre only, lots of refugees, no industry, falls into this category. The war was decided at this time, and it had no military sense. (The same holds for German bomb raids on civilians, of course).

Can Dresden be so easily distinguished? I believe the American purpose in firebombing Dresden was to get the Germans to surrender sooner rather than later. This was the same purpose for our firebombing of Japanese cities and for the use of nuclear weapons.

In early 1945, it was apparent to most Germans that they could no longer win the war with conventional weapons. Hitler however believed he was close to developing nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them. That was what he was telling the German people even as Allied troops entered German soil and the bombing became Hell on Earth.

After the war, we found that the Germans were indeed very close to building the bomb. They also had advanced jet fighters and long range bombers (actually the prototype of America's B-2 Steatlh bomber) nearly in production. Allied intelligence may and should have known this. This may be a partial explanation for Dresden - the need to end the war quickly before London, Paris and New York were obliterated.

Ned

[Ecthy]

what a lame excuse, given the war had almost been over by then

[Ned]

Ecthelion, Do you think, then, that the United States should admit to war crimes in bombing Dresden, and send to Germany for trial all those who participated who may still be living? There are probably hundreds, if not thousands, still here. Ned