Jean-Marie Le Pen vs. Arlette Laguiller - who'd you vote for?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ned
We are used to discussing ideas in the United States. We actually defend the right of even the Communists to speak openly. However, most Americans do not take their economic theories seriously, but rather regard them as somewhat laughable.

Only half true. Commies and anrachists still have to face the repressive arm of the law quite frequently. Often it's nothing more than the cops telling us to stop selling our papers on the sidewalk, but it can be as malign as being killed and/or tortured, unjustfly imprisoned. It still happens.

As for our theories, then main reason most people disregard us is because they don't known anything about us. When allowed to explain ourselves, most regard us as quite reasonable, if a little naive.

[axi]

On a separate point, communism depends on a class system to generate support. Nothing like that exists in the the United States.

How old are you, 12?
Where do you live, Beverly Hills?

Of course there is a class system in the United States! How about the WASPs, the blacks, the hispanics, the ghettoes, people living on welfare, the hobos, the sweatshops, the jails... As far as I know, in the United States a fairly large portion of the population is living on the margin of society and another large part is making ends meet with only the earnings of their own labor.

In actual fact, I believe so-called "workers" are better off here in United States than anyplace else the world. If you would believe communist propaganda, this would be impossible to due to the capitalist nature of our economy.

Of course the American workers are far better off than all other workers in the world. In a globalised economy the class system is extended globally, with nations-capitalists and nations-proletarians. The Americans own alot of bysinesses in other countries and are earning tons of money in expense of other nations. This raises your average income and makes your conscience more favorable to capitalism, since you are gaining from it. The real class difference is not between the $200.000 a year American and the $30.000 a year American but between those two and the $100 per year Ethiopian or the $125 per year Afghani.

[Ned]

Axi, I said, "class system." Having people of different degrees of income or having people of different national origins has nothing whatsoever to do with a "class system." Nothing in United States is set in stone either by custom or law. Everyone in United States, whether he is born here or not, can become the richest man in the world. Every kid born in United States can grow up to be president. We have no "class system."

Your statement concerning United States illustrates the complete lack of understanding of who we are. Its is an insult to Americans.

Ned

[axi]

Of course there are no customs or laws in the US concerning a class system, as f.e. in India (where the caste system still survives), but in general, as the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, there are huge class difference. A black kid from Harlem has not the same prospects in his life with a white kid from Beverly Hills (sorry for the stereotypes, but they are true in a large extent). The economic laws that run your country are establishing their own class system, apart from all the racist prejudices that still survive. We have big class differences in my country too, but here these are generally less illustrated.

[Ned]

Axi, But my point still remains that Russia did have a class system and America does not, in the sense I intended. This is why I believe Communisim did well in the former but not in the latter. In America, everyone has real hope of doing "better." Most of us grow up knowing of so many examples of average people becoming rich and famous. Many of our recent presidents started off poor. So very few of the poor really believe the need to overthrow the government and establish a classless state, etc., is remotely necessary to have a good life in America.

However, If I were living in Russia and born to a serf family before the revolution, I too would probably be a communist.

Ned

[chequita guevara]

The US does have a class system, it's just not set in law, as in previous times. There is a ruling class, there is a working class, there are farming and professional classes, and there is an underclass. By and large they reproduce themselves and there is very little movement between them, especially upwards.

Because the ruling class, however, is no longer as ostentatious as it was during the guilded age, it has become somewhat invisible. People assume it doesn't exist, though it owns the country and for the most part, the political system. At the same time, everyone else is lumped into a mushy middle class which has no real definition. Rather than being a [/i]true[/i] middle class of small shopkeepers and professionals, blue collar, white collar, pink and brown collars are all considered middle class. The vast majority of them are proletarian, like their parents, and like their children will be. There is a middle class, but it's a lot smaller than Americans realize.